I'm way out on a limb right now checking out a few different things for v0.30. A lot has been learned with v0.20 and will be applied.
So my question is:
If I can find a way to eliminate Extended Rom and turn it into either Storage Memory or Program Memory (or both) which is preferred?
BTW, I've already been able to increase Storage Memory to over 60MB (See attached Image)...
kyphur said:
I'm way out on a limb right now checking out a few different things for v0.30. A lot has been learned with v0.20 and will be applied.
So my question is:
If I can find a way to eliminate Extended Rom and turn it into either Storage Memory or Program Memory (or both) which is preferred?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Program memory is sufficient; go for Storage
Olipro said:
Program memory is sufficient; go for Storage
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, I always run short on Storage and have enough program
Storage is the first to run low.. same as the above.
-mix
I don't agree with all of you Storage can be buyed but program memory is limited. Who knows the memory requirements in future WM6 programas.
My vote for program memory!
I'm with Viva. Low on storage? Move programs over to the card. Low on RAM? You're screwed. I say move it over to Program memory. That seems to be the most logical.
TaurusBullba said:
I'm with Viva. Low on storage? Move programs over to the card. Low on RAM? You're screwed. I say move it over to Program memory. That seems to be the most logical.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many are having problems running programs from Storage Card too, some think this is the root of some sleep lockups too. How many people ever runout of Program Memory? Maybe we should do that poll. I have a hard time keeping more tan 7MB free in storage., but I have at least 15-19MB free in Program.
Hi kyphur,
i think an additional 10mb of storage memory wont be sinifcant as the 60mb you have achieved in wm6 is suffice. if we need additional storage memory we have the sd cards to take care of it.
10mb of PROGRAM MEMORY is significant as we only have under 30mb free on a fresh hard reset and after a day of use this drops to about 24mb or less. the extra 10mb will allow us to run, well in my case, many apps with ample program memory and not worry about bogging down the system.
Therefore my vote goes to program memory.
But I have one concern with using ROM storage as program memory. RAM and ROM differ signifcantly in terms of technology and the ROM has much slower access rates than RAM. Would this have a signicant impact on performance?
Nonetheless, id still prefer it to be program memory.
Alot of programs run better from internal storage than from a storage card.
As already mentioned I havent run out of progam memory yet. But there again I have never run out of storage space either.
So my vote is for two thirds storage one third programs as apposed to half and half just to be different.
By the way keep up the good work kyphur, it is much appreciated.
kyphur said:
BTW, I've already been able to increase Storage Memory to over 60MB (See attached Image)...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suggest you max out that storage to see if it actually is valid or not.
Olipro said:
I suggest you max out that storage to see if it actually is valid or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is true too, if there are any doubts as to reliabilty, stability then go with storage as well.
50 - 50 Split for everyone.
I have an Ultra 1 Gb SD Memory card Fitted (Faster than std SD) and I have Not loaded any programs on the Phone. (Everything is on the SD) but I am starting to see that my Program memory is getting Low. So I would benefit from more program memory.
I don't know if the Ultra Card makes a difference but I have very few if any Lock ups / Freezes.
I do agree with most on max the storage to see how stable it is...., but I would like both. An option to do either on the fly would be even better.
kyphur, lots of thanks for the great Roms you're cooking and developing! one question though, if Extended Rom gets eliminated in the next version, then will there be some way left to make programs like theft alert survive hard resets?
no no... I mean fill the storage up completely and then soft-reset the PDA to see if it's actually *real* space.
Program seems to make the most sense to me
Program is a good idea so is storage so that is why i vote 50/50. I am running out of both of them anyway.
I know I can use an SD card but it is not the same. SD installed apps causes the device to lock up at times.
Thank's a lot kyphur.
I'm democratic so 50 & 50 but, how wrote Olipro, before real test.
Well,split it even might be logical as few apps need to be installed in phone memory for better performance...........
My vote will be to :: release 2 ROMs ,one with more program memory and one with more storage memory and the users will decide which one to vote ...(will it be too much work releasing 2 ROMs??,if yes then Program memory wins!!)
Kyphur,
if you build two different ROMS, one with maxxed out program memory and one with maxxed out storage id like to run SPB benchmark and post the results for a better polling result....
edit... i would like more storage but dont want to lessen the performance...
Related
Hey guys i think this should be an important challenge to overcome maybe find out where all the ram is going and get it back without reseting our precious moguls. My experience its something that Task manager doesn't show up because when i end task on my DCD 3 1 2 ROM i dont get all of my memory back like right after reset. Also this causes inconvinient problem of starting GPS after few days of RAM going down to 8mb and not having enough to lunch TOMTOM.
Oxios doesn't not regain full mem only one third of it.
Can we some how make a better task manager or maybe purge RAM?
Writing a driver to consider our FLASH cards as constant RAM?
I would gladly sacrifice remove ability of my MicroSD for extra 4 gigs of ram and would let my memory leak on a period of roughly 4 years of constant usage.
Please lets get organized and stop hoping the next ROM upgrade will solve this issue.
This is one of the biggest downfalls of the mogul
I would suggest looking into how RAM works before making this thread.
First off, most of our ram appears to be lost due to memory leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak
And since, at least in my experience, most of the memory leak comes from Windows 6 (and so much worse in 6.1), you can't exactly end the windows task unless you...
restart the Mogul.
So no, an application, or task manager, wont do you any good. Not until they fix windows 6.1 up to not be lord of memory leaks. That is why new roms are often so desired, because only a rom release with some decent version of 6.1 with hopefully some patched memory leak holes could help our problem.
Second, you can't use a flash drive as ram, at least its not reasonable. You think the Mogul slows down now? Wow, just wait to you see it moving at the blistering pace of a microSD card.
Ram is so small, and so expensive, largely due to its speed. Thats why you can buy a 500GB HD for about the cost of 4GB of RAM on your computer.
Also, running from the MicroSD would be similar to the page file on your home computer. It runs from, in most cases, your C drive, its a fairly large file, getting even larger when you run multiple tasks on a low RAM system.
It is slow as a dog, and is one of the worst causes of system slowdowns. I also believe that MicroSD's have a limited number of read/writes. While not an issue so much for everyday use (taking pictures, running an app from time to time), if it were used as a swap file, it would probably wear out that SD card pretty quick.
So no, short of an amazing, simple amazing, piece of software engineering on Microsoft's part on a new Windows Mobile, someone developing some sweet, easy to install ram upgrade, or the new replacement for the Mogul coming out with more ram than we know what to do with.
You will be restarting your Mogul.
It should be possible to wright a Driver to USE RAM for swap file and some of main drivers but MicroSD card to be used to run all the extra features and programs. Also why our team of coders cant plug the memory leaks or find out the runing programs not seen by Task manager and have option to close them?
PS
Thanks for confirming my worst dream about the limits of our mogul. Also I notice that PPC on palm trios seems not to have these memory leaks.
This is maybe possible if we can build a tool that can reboot the shell without rebooting the actual OS. It can be combined with the command to free the memory when the OS is unloaded. This is my theory, i think that we can recover memory like this
VulnoX said:
I would suggest looking into how RAM works before making this thread.
First off, most of our ram appears to be lost due to memory leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak
And since, at least in my experience, most of the memory leak comes from Windows 6 (and so much worse in 6.1), you can't exactly end the windows task unless you...
restart the Mogul.
So no, an application, or task manager, wont do you any good. Not until they fix windows 6.1 up to not be lord of memory leaks. That is why new roms are often so desired, because only a rom release with some decent version of 6.1 with hopefully some patched memory leak holes could help our problem.
Second, you can't use a flash drive as ram, at least its not reasonable. You think the Mogul slows down now? Wow, just wait to you see it moving at the blistering pace of a microSD card.
Ram is so small, and so expensive, largely due to its speed. Thats why you can buy a 500GB HD for about the cost of 4GB of RAM on your computer.
Also, running from the MicroSD would be similar to the page file on your home computer. It runs from, in most cases, your C drive, its a fairly large file, getting even larger when you run multiple tasks on a low RAM system.
It is slow as a dog, and is one of the worst causes of system slowdowns. I also believe that MicroSD's have a limited number of read/writes. While not an issue so much for everyday use (taking pictures, running an app from time to time), if it were used as a swap file, it would probably wear out that SD card pretty quick.
So no, short of an amazing, simple amazing, piece of software engineering on Microsoft's part on a new Windows Mobile, someone developing some sweet, easy to install ram upgrade, or the new replacement for the Mogul coming out with more ram than we know what to do with.
You will be restarting your Mogul.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
while every single statement you say is true, your only wrong about how long ti takes to wear out a flash device. According to Toshiba, the inventor of Flash memory and one of the top suppliers of Flash memory chips, the 10,000 cycles of MLC [Multi-Level Cell] NAND is more than sufficient for a wide range of consumer applications, from storing documents to digital photos. For example, if a 256-MB MLC NAND Flash-based card can typically store 250 pictures from a 4-megapixel camera (a conservative estimate), its 10,000 write/erase cycles, combined with wear-leveling algorithms in the controller, will enable the user to store and/or view approximately 2.5 million pictures within the expected useful life of the card.
For USB flash drives, Toshiba calculated that a 10,000 write cycle endurance would enable customers to completely write and erase the entire contents once per day for 27 years, well beyond the life of the hardware.
take into note that is only 10,000 write cycles. 100,000 which is common for most flash drive now a days. so no, he wont even be around to see the day his flash drive even wears out. LOL.
Glad to see this post picking up some steam But lets Try and focus on making A solution rather than discussin known facts
the known facts have already pointed out the problem (memory leaks in the OS) and the only solution we have without the source code (restart the OS by rebooting the phone) so what else is there to discuss?
oh yeah, we can talk about ways to get the source code so we can fix it.
well i posted one idea:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2257436&postcount=4
Greetings,
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question or the wrong thread.
I am curious about memory allocation in Custom ROMS. I have an ATT Fuze and the Stock ROM stripped of junk had over 200MB of Program memory available. It seems like most of the Custom ROMs on this forum only start with 120MB or so.
It seems like most of the Custom ROMS all focus on the amount of Storage available rather than Program memory. With SD cards being priced so low that they are almost free, why is there more focus on Storage rather than Program memory? The phone cost close to $1,000 but I have an 8GB storage card that cost me $10.
I have migrated from an eTen X500 where I always struggled to find ways to free up program memory. Here it seems like there is no interest in program memory, only storage.
Not being critical, just curious about what I am missing.
Thanks for any advice.
Doug M.
You are in the wrong thread just so you know for future reference, but I'll answer your question. Many of the cooks do try to get you as much program memory as possible, and if you look on the threads for cooked roms, you'll find that they usually post the numbers for both. Several of the cooks also have a few different versions of their roms, so you can choose a lighter version that gives you more program memory. That being said, the TP already has tons of memory and gives you enough room to install tons of programs, especially if you're running a cooked rom.
There is only so much you can squeeze out of the Program Memory. I may be wrong but the Program Memory acts like memory cache for running programs. About the only way you can lower Program Memory is from removing files from the payload when you dump it and by moving around the different partitions to recover unused space. When I build my ROMs I have been using 16MB pagepool which eats away from the program memory but increases the quickness of windows a bit.
Storage on the other hand is so much easier to gain back...
In general:
The problem with app2SD, in general, is slow SD card speeds.
Solution:
Hybrid storage pools, using the inbuilt applicaiton directory as the cache and the microSD directory as the main storage.
blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/shadow_of_hsp explains some of the conceptual stuff
Issues:
ZFS is only available via FUSE
...
Thoughts?
.milFox said:
In general:
The problem with app2SD, in general, is slow SD card speeds.
Solution:
Hybrid storage pools, using the inbuilt applicaiton directory as the cache and the microSD directory as the main storage.
blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/shadow_of_hsp explains some of the conceptual stuff
Issues:
ZFS is only available via FUSE
...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While I think having snapshot, replication, 100% consistency, and dedup capability would be the coolest thing on a phone, I think the ZIL would burn up the sd quicker and the resource utilization would eat battery and memory for the transactional caches to make it practical
.milFox said:
In general:
The problem with app2SD, in general, is slow SD card speeds.
Solution:
Hybrid storage pools, using the inbuilt applicaiton directory as the cache and the microSD directory as the main storage.
blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/shadow_of_hsp explains some of the conceptual stuff
Issues:
ZFS is only available via FUSE
...
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My only thought is: "why?". I have every app I want installed and still have 102MB available. Given just how much more memory this has than the G1's of yore, I don't really see much of a reason for AppstoSD, especially since Google is releasing their own implementation *soon*.
I was already down to 29 Meg on my internal memory.
I'll be happy when Google implements a2sd. I can't see it being any different than what a2sd us doing though.
Just make sure you have a class 6 card.
Down to fairly minimal memory as well, here.
as to 'why' over conventional a2sd ... the in-built memory is faster than even a class 6 card. A hybrid zpool will allow the faster memory to cache the slower memory (normally, a hybrid zpool combines a SSD with a hard drive pool).
Ah, didn't realize people were having problems with it. Even so, Google has announced that they're working on it themselves and since it will be an actual part of the Android OS, rather than something hacked on, I imagine it'll be a better implementation that whatever we can do. I'll be waiting for that up and coming android release.
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Anyway, I think you will find it very difficult to use the MTD block for this purpose.
miketaylor00 said:
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disagree, I only have 50 apps in total but have used 107Mb of my 196Mb used.
I lost 33Mb just flashing a theme.
Does anyone know if TA utility will work on the Nexus to move all the Caches?
Which memory are we talking about, primary or storage memory? If memory serves me correctly, the current os can only 256MB of primary memory but that will be increased to the full 512 in a later OTA update. I thought I saw some thread flying around here about that.
Amdathlonuk said:
I disagree, I only have 50 apps in total but have used 107Mb of my 196Mb used.
I lost 33Mb just flashing a theme.
Does anyone know if TA utility will work on the Nexus to move all the Caches?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You almost proved his point. 33MB is a ****ty size for a theme - get a better Themerto follow. Hell, most themes for Windows aren't that big.
-bZj
miketaylor00 said:
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Anyway, I think you will find it very difficult to use the MTD block for this purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How on earth can you possibly make this judgment? Have you ever hear of cache? What about app data? Not to tout my own app (see sig), but the reason I created it was because my myTouch, with all of its storage, would run very low the regular basis. Besides, I like to download apps, both free and paid. Why should I be limited? Personally, I never even came close to filling up my 500MB ext partition on my myTouch but could easily have 50-100MB of cache in just a few days. I think having a GB of internal would suffice. It would allow me to comfortably add as many apps as I please and at the same time, not think about cache and data on the daily basis. $575 and I'm still going to have to hack a2sd on to this. I hate that. I'd much rather use internal storage.
Personally, I'm all for it. If nothing else, it would be one hell of a proof of concept and would likely be useful especially to those who like to run their devices lean and fast. There are too many nice things to say about ZFS, so I'll just say this: it's only a matter of time and what better time than now?
But I don't think it would happen, for the same reason ZFS hasn't been ported to linux, incompatible licenses.
http://zfs-fuse.net/
Can we get the ball rolling on this?
dont worry boys
A king nexus build is coming VERY soon with OPTIONAL a2sd and kingnexus kernel #1
SOON!
kingklick said:
dont worry boys
A king nexus build is coming VERY soon with OPTIONAL a2sd and kingnexus kernel #1
SOON!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what's the Kingnexus kernel have?
cyanogen said:
So what's the Kingnexus kernel have?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 .... and how does it relate to ZFS (y on earth) and apps2sd?
~enom~
lmao you pissed of cyanogen ! xD
miketaylor00 said:
People who are running out of memory have way too many apps installed.
Anyway, I think you will find it very difficult to use the MTD block for this purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ever hear of games? Seriously, making a statement like this is just plain ridiculous. Homerun Battle 3D is over 30MB in and of itself. Yes, believe it or not, people actually use their nearly $600 3.7" screen for something other than reading email, of which I do plenty. So yes, I hacked apps2sd onto my Cyan ROM and it runs beautifully. I can't even tell the difference between this and internal it's so smooth. By the time Google releases a viable apps2sd the N1 will be yesterday's news. Internal storage and capacitive buttons = fail on the N1. Otherwise, kick ass device.
I never touched the kernal on alpha7 just added a s.d>placeholder in system int.d folder got apps2sd and the rest was set. Did not know kernal was part.
Hope the kernal is good.
I know we have a way to move our apps to the internal nand memory, and that it's faster that way, but it seems like my class 6 sd card would be faster than the built-in sd. Is it possible to move our apps to the sd card (physical sd, not internal) so we do not bog down the system memory? It would just seem to make sense, until someone figures out how to make the internal sd respond faster.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
We have 2 gigz of application memory.. No need for apps2sd... Not sure of the transfer rate on it tho... But apps2sd won't be as stable or fast... In my past experience...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
junkdruggler said:
We have 2 gigz of application memory.. No need for apps2sd... Not sure of the transfer rate on it tho... But apps2sd won't be as stable or fast... In my past experience...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea who needs apps2sd with 2 gb of application storage...
temperbad said:
Yea who needs apps2sd with 2 gb of application storage...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^ Vibrant pretty much as its own dedicated space for apps.
The data storage is slow, and laggy. I don't think it transfers as fast as a class 6 sd card. I currently have my apps in my /system, but space there is limited. (did the stalling fix)
I'm thinking that my sdcard is faster than the internal sd. Maybe not as fast as the nand, but still.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
bryon13 said:
The data storage is slow, and laggy. I don't think it transfers as fast as a class 6 sd card. I currently have my apps in my /system, but space there is limited. (did the stalling fix)
I'm thinking that my sdcard is faster than the internal sd. Maybe not as fast as the nand, but still.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
umm?
I'm quite sure that the internal transfer rate is probably way above the capability of a class 6 for a whole lot of reasons, barring any manufacturing defects. If you are thinking that a memory card is magically going to speed up a phone that can basically do without one, then go get a UHS card to feel better.. . I'd rather just have a 16GB class 6 for storing crap and peace of mind but that's it.
bryon13 said:
The data storage is slow, and laggy. I don't think it transfers as fast as a class 6 sd card. I currently have my apps in my /system, but space there is limited. (did the stalling fix)
I'm thinking that my sdcard is faster than the internal sd. Maybe not as fast as the nand, but still.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NAND is faster than your class 6 card, easily... the lag is not due to the internal storage...
check this post. Maybe it will clear up what I mean about the speed vs space limitations.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=727279
I've used method 1, and noticed a HUGE difference in speed. If course, my sd card isn't going to be as fast as the nand, but in past experience (g1, mt3g) the sd card was faster than the built in memory was.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
bryon13 said:
The data storage is slow, and laggy. I don't think it transfers as fast as a class 6 sd card. I currently have my apps in my /system, but space there is limited. (did the stalling fix)
I'm thinking that my sdcard is faster than the internal sd. Maybe not as fast as the nand, but still.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did a test on my Vibrant internal SDCARD and it shows as a class 6....
I set CPU to 1000/1000 very little differences in battery drain yet did help a little with "lag" I also deleted most of the bloat-ware, startup and shutdown files...NOW ALL MOST NO LAG except as listed below...
When from 230 to 90 mb free after 1st boot up (without starting anything manually) to 230 to 120 mb free after 1st boot up...
So much Samsung has running at boot up so that extra 30mb and going down to 100MHz causes the"lag" - BTW, I did not do the "Lag fix" posted just to see if I could get it faster without going that.
The only two issue I currently have is:
While speednet app loads fast it will not start for about 45 secs - is forced to goto Washington State server, whereas all my other Android Phones goto CA...shows CA 1,123 miles away from phone
The double - "Press power button" and "then swipe screen" to use the phone is VERY "$$##%" ME OFF
I have used Titanium Backup to remove the bloatware, but I haven't tried permanently clocking to 1000. I saw no real difference in startup lag in my apps, until I used the "stalling issue" fix. What format is the data partition? That could have something to do with it? Would it make sense to add a swap partition to the internal sd? I'm really wondering if there are things we can do to tweak the built-in storage to make it more flexible, and functional? I would think 16 gig would give us PLENTY of space to play with...
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
Are you serious? I have well over 700 apks saved to my sdcard (almost 800mb) as backups... Theres no way you could throw that on an sd ext4 and it not lag.. Even a class 6... We can't even get apps2sd stable up to 2gigz... Like I said before the way it comes stock is faster and more stable than any hack we can come up with right now..
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Nevermind. Found a thread on apps to sd. It's already being done. I'll go check that thread. They don't see it as a pointless effort.
Thank you all.
My phone is just so...VIBRANT
Hey i installed a custom rom, ewjet 008ex to be exact, it has an app called swapper configuration, at the moment its not active, ive never used it bfore but it seems to work very similarly to readyboost feature u find on windows. ive also heard that this can reduce the life of the SD card because the amount of read and write requests. has anybody used this feature and has it helped in anyway such as performance and memory usage, ny help would be greatful. thanks in advance
i've used it on CM roms on my G1 and it worked great.
i tried it on ewV008ex rom and i had some problems. i have an 8gb class 4 card, so that may have contributed to it, however, with 256mb swap, i would have a song skip every now and then, i had a few random reboots and bluetooth connectivity problems (not sure how that had anything to do with swap, but it started when i started swap and stopped after i removed it). and after about a day, i ended up with a damaged sd card (which ended up being a corrupt file somewhere on the SD card, a format fixed it). there was little improvement noticed, again, with a class 4 card. i really didn't test any other swap size because of how short of a time i used it. but i would assume with a class 6+ card, 128mb swap size on an ext partition on the sd card, and it would be a lot more benficial. too big will actually slow swap down, too small and it may not be adequate enough for your application.
there is no universal magical number that you can use with swap, the settings will depend on your sd card class, apps you are using, etc. typical swap settings are 64mb, 128mb, 192mb and 256mb, or atleast they were on the G1's a few years back. try a few different settings and see how it works for you.
Thanks for the reply mate, hmm in 2 minds buh i might give it a go, i have a class 10 16gb microsd card, so id have to create an ext partition i take it?
you don't have to, swapper can write the swap file to FAT