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Recently ive been wondering why android is so different compared to windows?
I mean, although android 2.2, 2.3, (2.4) is out and running, only a small percentage of the phones actually got the upgrade, and most of em are still running 2.1 or lower for the time being, so what is the point in having a new firmware available if you cant run it on your phone anyway ?
Android is just a firmware right ? So why cant it be like windows, when there is a new version, no matter what specs or brand of PC, you just install and your up and running... And phones are just like small computers right ?
So why doenst google make android just as compatible as windows, and as soon as a new version comes out, we just install it and were good to go ? I know this is sort or less the whole point of it being open source, but there has to be a solution to this.
This would actually make so much more sense than it is right now! I know all phone-brands want to add there personal touch to there android phones like SE did with timescape and mediascape etc, but its all just based on the same firmware right ? So why cant these things like timescape and mediascape be seen like an update ? rather than fully integrated in the firmware ?
In my opinion, phone brands should go back to what they are actually good at.. manufacturing phones, and google should go back to what they are good at, designing new android versions, this shouldn't be the other way around.
Could one of you pls explain this to me ?
As a master student in economics, IF android could actually be compared like windows as I just explained, this would only have positive effects on the android/phone market, instead of all these angry and disappointed customers...
http://gizmodo.com/5733556/the-complete-state-of-android-froyo-upgrades
this threat is what made me write this, it is clear we are not the only ones stuck with 2.1 (but the gods at XDA are doing their best to fix this!)
I understand your point. My take on it is about the fragmentation. I'm not commenting whether it is good or not, but here's what I think. Windows machine have a much higher memory where they can store drivers, settings, etc. Just Windows XP alone took approx 6GB? I don't think phones can have that much internal memory at the moment. Also, PC's have interfaces where everything comes out to the correct machine language (PCI, SATA, etc) While these lacks on phones. They have different architectures and peripherals that supports only that architecture. Therefore, to keep it lightweight, it is the manufacturer's responsibility that if they are using OS such as Android, that the OS works with their hardware, while on PC, it's more hardware to work with the OS.
I'm sure if there's a universal hardware interface for mobile devices and enough internal memory, your wish will come true
unknown13x said:
I understand your point. My take on it is about the fragmentation. I'm not commenting whether it is good or not, but here's what I think. Windows machine have a much higher memory where they can store drivers, settings, etc. Just Windows XP alone took approx 6GB? I don't think phones can have that much internal memory at the moment. Also, PC's have interfaces where everything comes out to the correct machine language (PCI, SATA, etc) While these lacks on phones. They have different architectures and peripherals that supports only that architecture. Therefore, to keep it lightweight, it is the manufacturer's responsibility that if they are using OS such as Android, that the OS works with their hardware, while on PC, it's more hardware to work with the OS.
I'm sure if there's a universal hardware interface for mobile devices and enough internal memory, your wish will come true
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I understand what you are saying, but then again, why dont we just manufacture android phones based on the same architecture ? So they will all be compatible with every version of android ?
If this could be accomplished in some way, manufacturers wont have to deal with the lack of compatibility of newer versions anymore, and every phone will run optimal with any given firmware.
Android is at the same development stage as windows when it was win.dos, effectively; the future development was not foreseen. The aggressive marketing by ms changed that, obviously, but pcs from that era are hopelessly outdated. Mobile manufacturers are keeping up with Google rather than being dictated to by them. Eventually, a physical threshold will result in Android updates being software instead of hardware.
I think...
Sent from my X10i using XDA App
android is a fairly new n young operating system... its hardly 2 yrs old....
give it time... the way its goin now it headed in the right direction (same as windows)... compatibility issues will be sorted as time progresses... bare in mind that android devices span vast array of price ranges (and thus diff hardware as suited for that price) so compatibility will be an issue which will be sorted out in time...
clintax said:
I understand what you are saying, but then again, why dont we just manufacture android phones based on the same architecture ? So they will all be compatible with every version of android ?
If this could be accomplished in some way, manufacturers wont have to deal with the lack of compatibility of newer versions anymore, and every phone will run optimal with any given firmware.
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The problem is there's too many architecture to go for. A universal architecture means we're eliminating many companies. For example, say we choose snapdragon as our universal. That means ARM, NVIDIA, will all be taken out the competition. Of course ARM cannot build a microcontroller based on snapdragon's design either, this is due to licensing and such. I'm sure manufacturer wants something like you said, it will be much easier to manage, but chip makers are doing things their own way. Also, you have to consider how much new technology is being introduced to phones in just one year. It is massive. Even if phones have the same architecture, the problem that comes about is the memory size to store all the drivers. Either way, it will have to go through the manufacturer to strip it out, which would be back to where we start again. So it will not work out anytime soon...However I did heard Google is aiming to make a flexible Android where it can do something like you said, but looking at the hardware change, it's impossible for now
FWIW - I think that it's more to do with USP's - Each manufacturer could, quickly and fairly easily just bung stock android onto their hardware, and therefore make it extremely easy for us all to upgrade to the latest OS.. but they think.. "hang on, if we do that then all the phones will look and work in the same way.. why would anyone want to buy ours, over xxx competitors phone... no that simply won't do.. we must make our phones special, different and more appealing to XYXY subset of the market... that way we'll sell more phones than our competitors and eventually.. if we're lucky, we might just compete with Apple"..
Or something along those lines!
Gawd - I thought for a minute you actually wanted Android to be "like" Windows...
I nearly pooped myself.
k1sr said:
Gawd - I thought for a minute you actually wanted Android to be "like" Windows...
I nearly pooped myself.
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I was thinking the same way! Windows? Nah! Windows itself is a bloatware OS...
Deleted...
Good evening XDA crew,
I was just wondering if there is going to be a possibility of a SD bootable version of WM6.5 in the future? Is it technically possible? What are the limitations?
Everyone's (rightly) moving away from WM6.5 and jumping onto the Android bandwagon, myself included, but WM6.5 still earns a place on the HD2, imo.
For two reasons for me anyway - TomTom and LowCaller.
Being able to boot WM6.5 as a secondary OS would be ideal.
So what's the verdict?
I read something either earlier or yesterday (can't remember where on xda) that cotulla was working on getting wm6.5 to boot from an sd card. I don't know if it's true and i can't verifiy it or find the thread i saw it in so don;t hold your breath.
One other thing, please don't assume that using android over WM6.5 is the best choice for everyone. It is just your opinion that android is better. Your post insinuates that any other opinion is wrong. For example, my opinion is that android is an immature, open source, iphone clone for immature, fan boy teenagers. This is not wrong, it is just my opinion. Please take that onboard for the future
Personaly, I don't know if this will be possible. (major doubt about it). But I can be wrong.
but let's be honest, running Android (what is relative a small OS) from your SD works but if we ar honest, it isn't the same as running as if it is install on internal memory.
Now we have WM who is a more large OS. imaging it running from SD
What I will say (I'm a big fan of WM) is we all knows that WM is sometimes what slow/buggy. So if tomorrow it will run from your SD-card I will have doubs about how good it will be.
If I was you I take a good WM custom ROM and run android from your SD-card.
Looks like it's in the works!
http://twitter.com/cotullacode
# We (DFT Team) developing several interesting stuffs for LEO, like WM65 running from SD card! 1:00 AM Feb 1st via web
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Fantastic news for those of us who rely on WM for navigation and Android for everything else!
^agree^
I lost all the utility I had when it came to backpacking/hiking. Geocache and even when it came to navigating with meens other then gps winmo is still the strongest OS. Anyone remember 100% free orbcast and other, iptv ipcc? Those days may not be behind us with this. I love bits and pieces of all the moder platforms, but none provide the real/true utility value of wm65
^^^ +1 for this.
It will most probably take some time (for any platform) to re-discover all the niches which are still being served by WinMo 6.5.
As long as it´s a niche which promises commercial success, one would think it will go fast - but then again, there is some massive doubt about that, considering the current situation.
However, "homebrew" solutions are king when it comes to smaller niches - this is, for the time being, the strength of the Android platform. It was an old, traditional strength of Windows Mobile. Just consider the xda platform we are all being a part of right now.
thats very true, unfortunetly most of my primary utilization of wm was simply that a niche, I must have adopted more niche uses then any other user lol
Today I have read an article that all currently running WP7 Smartphones will NOT receive an Update to WP8.
Instead they will get an Update to WP 7.8.
I am sooooo happy that we have finally running HSPL for our devices, so our talented devs will hopefully be able to make coustom roms WITH WP8 !!
Lets hope the best
The article is in german, if you understand that language check it out
http://www.chip.de/news/Windows-Phone-8-Das-kann-das-neue-Microsoft-OS_56171609.html
I don't think DFT or others can do something about this :
The main reason WP8 isn't going to current devices is that most of the new kernel will be built for multi core processors ...
I don't think this is something you or me or DFT could change ...
Of course I want to be wrong xD
Btw I am pretty satisfied with the 7.8 solution.
A nice WP7.8 custom ROM would be enough for me if we'll still be able to be part of the system.
The important question is about what features will be included in the 7.8 update other than the GUI change.
Yeah, we're screwed. I'm selling my Titan while I still can, nobody would want one a few months from now.
I will probably buy a freakin' iPhone because it holds its price pretty well and stick with it until WP8 phones become available. That is if I won't become an Apple guy in the mean time...
The question still remains.... Is 7.8 going to be the last update, and how long will it take devs stop making things and switch to native code???
Why develop apps for a old system? I know wp7x apps will run on w8, but w8 will have all new open api.
i heard so many times that there would never be a way to get wp7 on my hd2....... perhaps history will repeat itself
I can deal with the 7.8 solution. I just think its a bit awkward that they would market the hell out of the Lumia 900 (and rightfully so) knowing that a few months later they are going to announce that it is not upgradeable to 8. However, Microsoft had to do what they had to do and seeing the big picture, I think it is going to be even more phenomenal. What concerns me is that I wonder if HTC is going to even bother upgrading the Titan (which I currently own) and Titan II seeing that they really have no enthusiasm for the platform. And what surprises me is that they are on board with the initial fleet of WP8 phones. I think I may switch over to Nokia next time around. You can tell how wonderfully they treat their customers and they continuously get new stuff. We shall see.
Flytetymex said:
What concerns me is that I wonder if HTC is going to even bother upgrading the Titan (which I currently own) and Titan II seeing that they really have no enthusiasm for the platform. ... I think I may switch over to Nokia next time around.
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I think the 7.8 update (if that's what you mean) is coming directly from MS so all current 7.5 handsets will be able to get it.
I'm almost 100% sure my WP8 will be from Nokia. I may even get a Lumia now, just because they look so cool & the apps are top notch. (hopefully prices on ebay will plummet after this announcement) Right now I've got a Titan II.
antaed said:
Yeah, we're screwed. I'm selling my Titan while I still can, nobody would want one a few months from now.
I will probably buy a freakin' iPhone because it holds its price pretty well and stick with it until WP8 phones become available. That is if I won't become an Apple guy in the mean time...
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sutt359 said:
The question still remains.... Is 7.8 going to be the last update, and how long will it take devs stop making things and switch to native code???
Why develop apps for a old system? I know wp7x apps will run on w8, but w8 will have all new open api.
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Guys don't talk like those trolls are WPCentral. We are on XDA-DEVELOPERS.
As an developer I would want to target mass market. When WP8 launches, even if with excellent traction what will be one's target market? 4 million? 5 million? in first 6 months?
WP7.x has 10 million+ strong.
WP7.x apps WILL run on WP8.
So I will be making apps for 15million target audience i.e. make an app for WP7.x and serve and earn more.
Only certain games that need multi-cores might be native coded but then we don't have that hardware, so MSFT hasn't screwed us.
drupad2drupad said:
Guys don't talk like those trolls are WPCentral. We are on XDA-DEVELOPERS.
As an developer I would want to target mass market. When WP8 launches, even if with excellent traction what will be one's target market? 4 million? 5 million? in first 6 months?
WP7.x has 10 million+ strong.
WP7.x apps WILL run on WP8.
So I will be making apps for 15million target audience i.e. make an app for WP7.x and serve and earn more.
Only certain games that need multi-cores might be native coded but then we don't have that hardware, so MSFT hasn't screwed us.
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I agree with what you say and I'm sorry to act like a troll but I'm angry because:
- WP7 lacks some important functionality which I hoped to get with the WP8 upgrade (VOIP integration, location background tasks, universal search, HTML5/CSS3 compatible browser, etc.)
- I wanted to keep my Titan for at least 1 year and now I have to sell it (while it still holds some value)
- if I knew the Titan would not get the update I wouldn't have bought it (I was naive, so my fault here)
antaed said:
I agree with what you say and I'm sorry to act like a troll but I'm angry because:
- WP7 lacks some important functionality which I hoped to get with the WP8 upgrade (VOIP integration, location background tasks, universal search, HTML5/CSS3 compatible browser, etc.)
- I wanted to keep my Titan for at least 1 year and now I have to sell it (while it still holds some value)
- if I knew the Titan would not get the update I wouldn't have bought it (I was naive, so my fault here)
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Since you are on XDA I am presuming you know that the dev community will probably port in custom ROMs with WP7.8 before even officials are rolled out! Yesterday's "dev summit" means nothing to the end user. No end user features are released officially. We've gotta wait for the customer focused annoucements. Surely WP7.8 won't be a start screen only update. It will plug in most of the non-hardware dependant gaps.
And - if MSFT doesnt, XDA will.
drupad2drupad said:
Since you are on XDA I am presuming you know that the dev community will probably port in custom ROMs with WP7.8 before even officials are rolled out! Yesterday's "dev summit" means nothing to the end user. No end user features are released officially. We've gotta wait for the customer focused annoucements. Surely WP7.8 won't be a start screen only update. It will plug in most of the non-hardware dependant gaps.
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I'm aware, of course
drupad2drupad said:
And - if MSFT doesnt, XDA will.
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Yes, but to what extent? Supposing that current devices were used for WP8 testing, there is hope for test build leaks. If not, the kernel/driver related gaps will almost certainly never be filled. Very difficult challenge to overcome and few developers will be interested to do it - especially true for the Titan which is far from being a popular device...
The way I am looking at this scenario is that any device was to be supported for 2 years.
I got my Titan Nov 2011 (launch was Oct 2011?)
So ideally, MSFT should support my titan till April 2013. The so called WP7.8 will add features, may be not high tech, most advanced features, but surely those that will make my Nov 2011 Titan much better than what I purchased. This WP7.8 won't actually hit our phones till Nov-Dec 2012, if that's when WP8 phones are to be in the wild.
Surely that refresh can last my phone for next 6 months. MSFT has repeatedly said they will be giving 2 major updates. Only the Lumia 900 and HTC Titan2 owners will see just one WP7.8, but all of us have seen Mango and now WP7.8
And what says, that we won't have a Tango-like minor update after WP7.8?
The fact that 7.5 is being pushed to 7.8 and not 8.0 shows that its two iterations lower than 8.0 (one being kernel change, second being ?) and THREE iterations better than 7.5. Surely a new start screen isn't worth making it 7.8. It could easily have been 7.6 unless ofcourse MSFT devs like fooling us with numbers (I don't doubt it! )
Also, MSFT will support us with apps for that period too. Devs won't make apps for an OS with zero user base. They will want it to start off with 10 million of us first. At least till June-July 2013, I don't see lots of WP8 exclusive apps that are not hardware dependant. Ofcourse there will be a huge influx of apps come this Christmas that will be exclusive to WP8 to show off its hardware capapbilities.
All in all, it is an excellent thing if you want WP to succeed and want to benefit from the whole "ecosystem" experience unmatched by any other OS! I am loving my phone and won't buy a WP8 till next summer. I am in love with my Titan and the custom ROMs have just started... possibilites are endless. We might be looking at a new HTC HD2
---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 AM ----------
Here found this:
http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/06/20/new-nokia-apps-zynga-games-to-make-your-lumia-even-better/
Part that is of our interest -
"Elsewhere, you may have read about the new Windows Phone 8. How does this affect your Lumia? Well, you are not being left out. All Lumia smartphones will be getting an update to give you some of the features of Windows Phone 8, including the new Start screen, as well as a pattern of ongoing updates going forward."
When the summit was summarised, it was told that we will get continuing support from OEMs. I am inclined to believe that OEMs will dish out a range of updates for another 12-15 months or so for WP7 to bring it as close as possible to WP8. When WP8.5 is released, WP7 will truely be dead, which is OK.
drupad2drupad said:
Also, MSFT will support us with apps for that period too. Devs won't make apps for an OS with zero user base. They will want it to start off with 10 million of us first. At least till June-July 2013, I don't see lots of WP8 exclusive apps that are not hardware dependant. Ofcourse there will be a huge influx of apps come this Christmas that will be exclusive to WP8 to show off its hardware capapbilities
.
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it's really clear to me with my ics xoom tablet that gingerbread has not been abandoned. there are still few apps in the google play store that only work on ics or honeycomb. i'm pretty sure the same will apply for wp7.5/8 - as has been said before. why limit yourself to the people with one system when most apps will work on both. the only time this will change is if wp8 is a massive runaway success, which i'd be equally happy about
As far as markets go, being able to use native code means an easy port of games and apps to and from Android and iOS. If you could serve 3 markets with your app or just 1, which would you choose? WP8 means the end of apps for WP7 devices.
Microsoft could have chosen to port the kernel to our devices. People are like "well, the kernel needs multicore". Bull****. Windows 8 will run on a Pentium 4. You telling me they can get their desktop OS to run on 6-8 year old hardware but mobile can't run on less than a year old? The kernel doesn't matter any goddamn way. They could choose to port native support to our device. Apple did it with 68k to PPC and PPC to Intel, and with considerably less money and human resources. Embedded NT already runs on WP7 chipsets.
Microsoft is telling too many partners too many different things. First they say they are changing the OS to run on lower spec hardware, now they are saying the higher-end hardware can't run the next OS.
Sent from my PI39100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
dragon_76 said:
As far as markets go, being able to use native code means an easy port of games and apps to and from Android and iOS. If you could serve 3 markets with your app or just 1, which would you choose? WP8 means the end of apps for WP7 devices.
Microsoft could have chosen to port the kernel to our devices. People are like "well, the kernel needs multicore". Bull****. Windows 8 will run on a Pentium 4. You telling me they can get their desktop OS to run on 6-8 year old hardware but mobile can't run on less than a year old? The kernel doesn't matter any goddamn way. They could choose to port native support to our device. Apple did it with 68k to PPC and PPC to Intel, and with considerably less money and human resources. Embedded NT already runs on WP7 chipsets.
Microsoft is telling too many partners too many different things. First they say they are changing the OS to run on lower spec hardware, now they are saying the higher-end hardware can't run the next OS.
Sent from my PI39100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
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I don't think it is about hardware at all and MSFT never suggested so either. What they've said is the whole WP8 which can be scaled up and down is a big task and effort. From update point of view, packaging this whole new kernel update via Zune to us also means, that the noob on the other hand (not you and me) needs to know what to do. To wipe devices, to get the new drivers on, the new ROM and radio - not a normal update. I think MSFT could have spent a few months trying and testing things so that current gen phones can get this new kernel with "super update". But frankly, only a few thousand of us out of the suspected 12 million are tech-savvy for such an update. The bricks, the admin to support bricks would be an endless affair.
Also, OEMs. Convincing them to make new drivers to update current hardware would mean they can't sell more phones. OEMs want to sell phones. They want money, they will never choose update v/s new hardware. OEMs would also have to have support channels open for such bricks etc - again not good enough reason to put that effort on negligible number of users of this platform.
Above all, what I think the real, REAL reason is: Hardware. Current hardware although not outdate by any means isn't good enough to "exploit" WP8 kernel that powers a PC. The choice was:
Should we have a PC software run by mediocre hardware or should we launch it with awesome hardware that will exploit the new kernel? From business point of view, new hardware, new software = more attention grabbing.
My 2p
Then by your logic, Microsoft should never release anything but bug fixes. In fact, the opposite is happening. Microsoft is planning on bypassing vendors and carriers starting with Windows 8. As far as hardware goes, no ATT rep is going to push Windows Phone now, and it is already well-known that has been a problem as it is.
In fact, it would behoove vendors if Microsoft supported current generation phones because they could work on streamlining current production instead of spending the money on new designs. Do you think the most valuable company in the world (Apple) doesn't understand this? The 3GS will run iOS 6! Other smartphone platforms are basically saying if you want your hardware supported the life if your contract, you need to buy an iPhone...
Also, just an FYI, windows phones are all the same. They all use 100% identical chipsets and have almost no custom hardware. The only difference they have is in the camera and those are high-level drivers. Microsoft was notoriously strict with their hardware spec. Hardware partners did not write any drivers, the same way PC vendors do not write any drivers. It is all a partnership between MS and chipset manufacturers.
Sent from my PI39100 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I recieved an e.mail from Microsoft stating my titan will be able to recieve the window 8 update. What's that about?.
fallenmonk said:
I recieved an e.mail from Microsoft stating my titan will be able to recieve the window 8 update. What's that about?.
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According to the site where I got that info, all currently devices which run WP7 wont get the update, so we should wait and see...
What are the chances we'll see the new Ubuntu for phones os running on our hardware anytime soon?
As far as I understand it it should be just a matter of compiling for our specific soc, making a flashable rom and then flashing, right? They say it can run on android kernels so there shouldn't have to be any hardware interface work that needs to be done, right?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda app-developers app
If you don't mind me asking, how would this make any difference to us?
rangercaptain said:
If you don't mind me asking, how would this make any difference to us?
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It would enable us an alternative operating system choice, allowing application developers to create processor native applications (rather than using a java virtual machine that's quite resource intensive than running apps on the bare metal) thus using less system resources, enabling faster multitasking, greater compatibility with preexisting applications, enhanced security, and the desktop mode that they are touting is quite nice as well. connect an hdmi dongle and use a bluetooth keyboard and mouse to turn the phone into a desktop computer... there are lots of uses for a bare metal operating system on a hardware platform with restrictive system resources.
there's really nothing wrong with android per se, she's a great OS, but there are a wide number of other approaches to building os's and user experiences. I would consider this pretty similar to choosing to install ubuntu on a PC, or windows on a mac for that matter. it's a matter of widening the variety of application approaches and compatibility. a matter of choice.
I really want to know if this is possible after seeing the demo of it on engadget this morning I'm convinced that this is one os I'd be willing to flash and possibly leave on over android, as amazing as Android is this just better though out in terms of where everything is and speed of access
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2
It may take off, if someone is able to best the entire android community as a whole, but the odds of that are "0"...
We would be better served if google took it over, and incorporated the OS into a handful of smart phones. Beyond that prospect, a port for us would be nothing more than a pet project.
This idea is not new, and mention of it can be found in virtually ever forum on this site, and a few devs have met with success on getting a bootable Android device running Ubuntu, but it was a short lived event, as support for the OS is simply not there ATM.
I do agree that a different OS is a good idea, but as a dedicated Android user, I would not be willing to switch at this point, as a stable, functional OS is months or even years away.
Likely the OS would fall the way of RIM, and other OS platforms, albeit, ahead of it's time.....g
gregsarg said:
It may take off, if someone is able to best the entire android community as a whole, but the odds of that are "0"...
We would be better served if google took it over, and incorporated the OS into a handful of smart phones. Beyond that prospect, a port for us would be nothing more than a pet project.
This idea is not new, and mention of it can be found in virtually ever forum on this site, and a few devs have met with success on getting a bootable Android device running Ubuntu, but it was a short lived event, as support for the OS is simply not there ATM.
I do agree that a different OS is a good idea, but as a dedicated Android user, I would not be willing to switch at this point, as a stable, functional OS is months or even years away.
Likely the OS would fall the way of RIM, and other OS platforms, albeit, ahead of it's time.....g
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While I strongly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, the fact of the matter is that it's already running on the quintessential android test bed for the current generation of phones (the galaxy nexus) which means that it should be very easily ported to other, similar hardware (which is most of the android devices out there right now.). if they made this completely open source (which i'm pretty sure they'd have to given that most of the components of the OS are built on open-source licenses), and allowed the already very good and very diverse linux community expand it's functionality, write good apps for it, I think it has some pretty great promise.
my personal standpoint however, is that operating systems for mobile should work exactly like they do for PC's (and macs for that matter). you should be able to install whatever, whenever, without the approval of the company that happens to make the hardware, and without the approval of the company who provides the data and telephone services for the device... it's a pocket computer, not a dumb phone designed for one thing.
I thought Android was Linux and Ubuntu was Linux. Why is one type better than the other? And to run native, wouldn't hardware manufacturers have to write a butt load of drivers? Like the fiasco of upgrading from win2000 to win7.
Ubuntu won't be released til 2014, will older phones like our note1 be supported?
Keep in mind that by 2014 the note1 would be considered old in mobile years.
rangercaptain said:
I thought Android was Linux and Ubuntu was Linux. Why is one type better than the other? And to run native, wouldn't hardware manufacturers have to write a butt load of drivers? Like the fiasco of upgrading from win2000 to win7.
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Click to collapse
hardware drivers always run on the bare metal anyway (usually as part of the kernel, or occasionally as a background daemon service). the point is that android applications are built on top of the java environment which is a virtual machine - it's processes are abstracted and emulated which requires much more system resources than writing in something like c++ for the underlaying hardware. the only compatibility that this would break is that binaries don't work across cpu platforms. if something is compiled for the arm9 architecture for example (what most modern smartphones use, including our note), it wouldn't run on android for x86 or another java virtual machine like bluestacks. in order to get it to run on a different hardware platform you'd either have to emulate a complete device (like the iphone and android sdk simulators), or recompile it for the platform you want to run it on (only useful if you have the source code). the latter method is how linux distributions have been doing things for years. there are virtually identical linux distributions that can run on intel, arm, powerpc, sparc, motorola 68k, etc. etc. they can all run pretty much the same applications (because of the hardware abstraction layer present in the kernel), but in order for it to work, those applications must be recompiled for the appropriate underlaying processor architecture, as the output of a c(++,#) compiler is code that is cpu architecture specific.
also, windows 2000 and windows 7 were designed for the same (or similar) underlaying hardware problems. windows 2000 to windows 7 was mostly a piece of cake. whereas the move from windows 98 to windows 2000 or windows 98 to windows xp was difficult because windows 9x and windows 2000/xp use a different variety of hardware abstraction layer and thus different drivers must be written as drivers designed for one HAL won't work with another. (same thing for major linux revisions. the HAL in the 2.4 series of kernels is different from the one in 2.6 series of kernels which means one has to rewrite device drivers in order to get some less-than-standard hardware working.
So cp....
your a smart guy...
Get it going for us.....
you've got the skills we need to pull it off....g
gregsarg said:
So cp....
your a smart guy...
Get it going for us.....
you've got the skills we need to pull it off....g
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, If i had access to the sources (that by all rights should be open thanks to the way the gpl is designed), I'd be happy to build a rom and help with the development efforts. I'm pretty decent at optimizing linux distributions for arm hardware. we should all petition canonical to release the code post haste.
I would love to see ubuntu ported over to phones. I almost fell off my chair when I heard of the idea that your phone could just connect to a monitor/keyboard/mouse to become a fully fledged desktop computer. This would literally replace almost all of my gadgets into one device. I wouldn't need a laptop, an ipod, a dvd player, or even a gaming console possibly as well.
I've been using ubuntu for a number of years and would be overjoyed to see almost all of my electronics and computing essentially made into one pocket sized device. The possibilities are so great for this kind of leap in technology and it almost seems to be the inevitable succession in personal computer technology. This could possibly be the beginning of the end for laptops, desktops, tablets, and netbooks/ultrabooks. All data would be transmitted using flash memory or transmitted OTA instead of spinning disks or other media.
If the source code is released, and I'm sure it will since Canonical has done a decent job of running Ubuntu lately, I hope someone brings it to the i717 because then I would probably sell a lot of electronic equipment
The release will never happen to allow a single, all inclusive device.
Ubuntu or not, there are too many hands in the pie, and billions of dollars on the table.
The apples, and Samsungs of the world will go at it until the day we die.
They all want the biggest piece, and will squash anyone that gets in their way.
Ubuntu would need a home run piece of code that emulates a magic carpet if they ever hope to slay the beast.
And if they did, I'm not so sure that people would embrace the one stop shop mentality for a single device anyway.
It simply stinks of yet another apple type monopoly in the making.
I support the idea, but it's the logistics that kill the deal, money driven logistics of course.....g
gregsarg said:
The release will never happen to allow a single, all inclusive device.
Ubuntu or not, there are too many hands in the pie, and billions of dollars on the table.
The apples, and Samsungs of the world will go at it until the day we die.
They all want the biggest piece, and will squash anyone that gets in their way.
Ubuntu would need a home run piece of code that emulates a magic carpet if they ever hope to slay the beast.
And if they did, I'm not so sure that people would embrace the one stop shop mentality for a single device anyway.
It simply stinks of yet another apple type monopoly in the making.
I support the idea, but it's the logistics that kill the deal, money driven logistics of course.....g
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Too true, it's all about the money in the end, even with free stuff.
Now that you mention it, it does sound a lot like some sort of Apple type ploy to get you to buy their things... either way I hope it happens someday
I still don't get why people think the memory has anything to do with 64 v 32. I have never heard a person ever say "oh you machine is laggy because you have a 64bit machine and not enough memory." until I found this sub-forum. The iPhone/iPad have had 1-2GB of RAM and not had any huge performance issues while being 64bit.
There are memory issues, that's it, nothing to do with it being 64-bit or not. 3GB MAY "fix" the issue, but that would really just mean the machine would go longer until it started to show symptoms. The nexus 5 and 6 had LOTS of memory issues on Android 5 and no one ever said "it's not enough memory" and not being 64bit hardware they couldn't blame that, because it worked fine on 4.X. We have no 4.X to compare with, so everyone just wants to blame 64 bit when really, it just needs more software fixes that Google isn't spending time on.
If anything having a 64bit CPU just means the CPU can work harder and faster, even if it was running 32bit software. I know that not many developers ahve latched on to the n9, but i would NOT be surprised if a few clever ones could figure out what is actually causing the memory leaks/aggressive paging. For example on my n6 it is using about 4-500MB less ram, just to to Android OS and Google App. There is nothign about being 64-bit that means the Kernel needs over 2x's the memory usage. Something is making it keep memory instead of releasing it. I am not smart enough to know what that "something" is, but I'm sure someone that develops and has an N9 is smart enough and can file a bug report for it that we can all upvote.
If there are any current open bug reports for memory usage on the n9 please link them to me, I will gladly upvote them. Lets just be clear there is no reason to suspect this is anything more than a software issue.
To Update:
Here is a bug report i found of the problem, if more people could Star it then it can get up the priority list.
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=175232
People like to blame the 64bit OS because the switch does make processes consume slightly more memory. If implemented poorly, a 64bit OS can eat up a lot more RAM. Windows XP 64, any Itanium based system and many early x64 Linux distributions come to mind.
Somehow Android OS on my N6 averages 220mb, while it's 800+ on the N9. Because the N9 is 64 bit, that change seems to be the obvious culprit. Clearly, the N9 didn't ship with enough RAM based on the OS memory use as somehow the N6 has 3gb for an 220MB OS footprint and the N9 has only 2mb, despite an OS that eats almost 4x the memory.
Switching to a 64bit OS should make the CPU, RAM, etc. all run 'faster', but if there's not enough RAM to hold running software, the experience will slow down as more processes need to be shuffled in and out of RAM. Look at what happens to a computer when it 'runs out of RAM'. The constant game of musical RAM chairs will more than erase any gains from switching to 64 bit.
In my mind, there is no question that SERIOUS problems exist with this device. The fact that this is one of the first 64bit Android devices is almost definitely a contributing factor, but the slightly reduced efficiency of how 64bit memory is allocated can in no way explain the problems with the devices. Something MUCH deeper is going on. Based on some research, here is what I've learned.
1: Some part of the OS is using an obscene amount of memory. Some of this is probably Google's fault because 64 bit Android just wasn't ready. I'm also pretty sure nVidia and HTC are more to blame for this issue than Google.
2: There's still not enough RAM. If the N6 has 3GB, there is no reason why the N9 shouldn't. Most tablet users run more memory-intensive
3: HTC built a bad device. I've had cellular issues with VZW & ATT which have been discussed in these forums and are obviously HTC's fault. I've also read about there being some hardware issues causing the ram to 'freeze' which required a replacement device.
4: nVidia's hardware sucks. More accurately, their x64 bit implementation of the hardware.
5: Graphics: I BELIEVE THIS IS THE GIANT ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM OF ISSUES. The nVidia Shield has similar hardware with a standard HD screen. The N9 has a different aspect ratio and a lot more pixels. The horrible application switching lag even with relatively low memory use (a process that is still taxing on the GPU) makes me think this is the main flaw of the device. This problem could also make the OS eat more memory to make up for the OS issues. A graphics issue would be everyone's fault. Google is to blame for insisting on this change when the other hardware just couldn't support it properly and choosing partners incapable of delivering the hardware to properly support the screen. nVidia and HTC to blame for not providing sufficient hardware and software support for the screen.
In reality, I think several factors combined to produce this issue. The components of the system were designed primarily for 32-bit implementations of Android. 64-bit support was baked into them, but it wasn't the focus of the components. The device itself was probably designed before 64-bit Android was even available to test properly. Because the pieces looked like they should fit together on paper, everyone just assumed they would. Unfortunately,for some components the fact that they could run in 64-bit mode, didn't mean they would run well.
x64 gets blamed because it is unknown. The average user has no idea what it means to have a 64 bit platform vs 32 bit. IMO x64 is unneeded unless you're mapping 4gb or more RAM and doing a lot of computations with large numbers.
There is most certainly a memory penalty since the os must run 64 bit code and likely have a vm of some sort to run all the existing 32 bit stuff. In windows this is obvious as you have program files and program files (x86) folders as well as windows\system32 and windows\syswow64 humorously the former is the 64 bit subsystem and the latter is the x86 subsystem. This is why you should plan ahead when architecting your applications and not name your folders poorly.
All that said, I have an htc m9 in addition to the nexus. The m9 is also 64 bit and has no issues. Not an apples to apples comparison since it is a Qualcomm processor with 3gb of ram and less pixels but it should indicate that 64 bit android is not the problem in and of itself.
Thanks guys. 64-bit apps should use at most 15-20% more RAM compared to their 32-bt counterparts, simply due to the fast that 64-bit assets are larger. The issue we have is that in cases like Android OS, using over 120% more memory than on a 32bit device. It also for some reason seems at times to feel like the GPU is taxed and it definitely should not be. So either the GPU drivers are buggy or the GPU memory is very limited. Luckily much of this is improved on 6.0, but there are still issues that need to be addressed in the OS itself.
Because saying "I do not know why my Nexus 9 performs poorly" is boring. Jumping to conclusions is much more exciting and dramatic.
knitler said:
Thanks guys. 64-bit apps should use at most 15-20% more RAM compared to their 32-bt counterparts, simply due to the fast that 64-bit assets are larger. The issue we have is that in cases like Android OS, using over 120% more memory than on a 32bit device. It also for some reason seems at times to feel like the GPU is taxed and it definitely should not be. So either the GPU drivers are buggy or the GPU memory is very limited. Luckily much of this is improved on 6.0, but there are still issues that need to be addressed in the OS itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suspect you are right that there are driver issues. Sadly our only recourse is to wait on nvidia/htc/google to rectify the issue.
Don't know what it is but 6.0 is not what I expected. Jerky , slow loading and very unpleasant to use. Have never rooted or rommed. Don't think I should have to. Did a FDR, no improvement. Have to constantly clear app cache and system cache to make it tolerable. Hoping for some relief from Google
Android 6 on my stock nexus 9 has brought every task switch of any kind to a near unusable lag. 4 to a full 20 seconds is the norm now. In fact, just about every response to user action in every app has this problem now. I've got almost nothing except Google's apps, many of which I don't use, but still have something running.
The tablet is now a paper weight, almost. The delays make it unusable, as you can't tell whether an interface action didn't "take", or is just laggy.
I did this as an update. Should I just wipe and reinstall clean? If so, where do I get the necessary files and instructions?
Thanks for any insight.
Black Friday buy, feeling I'm going to return it, two days in and I can see the issues already
dislplin01 said:
Black Friday buy, feeling I'm going to return it, two days in and I can see the issues already
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Welcome to the Lagsus 9 owners club [emoji6] Did it ship with latest android version, or did you ota update?
rolldroids said:
Welcome to the Lagsus 9 owners club [emoji6] Did it ship with latest android version, or did you ota update?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It had to update, actually had like 7 different updates, I'm pretty sure I'm returning it I'm really unimpressed and most of it is hardware issues that can't be fixed, lack of ram, light bleed, ****ty power and volume buttons, not exactly the thinnest lightest tablet. Don't get me wrong its a nexus and I do like it, but I don't plan on buying another tablet for at least three years and if I'm already feeling a little unhappy
dislplin01 said:
It had to update, actually had like 7 different updates, I'm pretty sure I'm returning it I'm really unimpressed and most of it is hardware issues that can't be fixed, lack of ram, light bleed, ****ty power and volume buttons, not exactly the thinnest lightest tablet. Don't get me wrong its a nexus and I do like it, but I don't plan on buying another tablet for at least three years and if I'm already feeling a little unhappy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wish I would have returned it, but haven't because I thought they were fixing the memory leak. And after fixed it turned out that all other Nexus devices do well but not the n9.
Feel free to try my ROM if you're unsatisfied with what Google has done with stock.
NYCHitman1 said:
Feel free to try my ROM if you're unsatisfied with what Google has done with stock.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does it have lower system ram usage? There are people (like me) who want just use their device as a normal user and get ota updates and not flash the device manually every few weeks. It's very nice that you are sharing it anyway!
Everyone try first "safe mode" on Nexus 9 for 3-5 days to see if this app or hardware problem!
Press and hold power button
pres and hold "power off" option
then choose OK.
If problems gone (lag, resetting) then do factory reset without backup, install app manually not all at once from backup. It helped mine Nexus 9
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
rolldroids said:
Does it have lower system ram usage? There are people (like me) who want just use their device as a normal user and get ota updates and not flash the device manually every few weeks. It's very nice that you are sharing it anyway!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you'll be happy. Popular quote that people often use is:
You have breathed new life into my Nexus 9.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With that said, it's entirely possible to flash one build and stick with it for however long as you wish. When you do decide to update, you simply create a backup, "wipe", and flash the newer build with some gapps. Something to keep in mind here is that Nexus devices were created to be fiddled with. If you aren't fiddling, you aren't getting the full experience. It is a developer's device, after all. :highfive:
If this is a road you do decide to travel down, just be sure to do a lot of reading and understand what you're doing prior to doing it.
NYCHitman1 said:
I think you'll be happy. Popular quote that people often use is:
With that said, it's entirely possible to flash one build and stick with it for however long as you wish. When you do decide to update, you simply create a backup, "wipe", and flash the newer build with some gapps. Something to keep in mind here is that Nexus devices were created to be fiddled with. If you aren't fiddling, you aren't getting the full experience. It is a developer's device, after all. :highfive:
If this is a road you do decide to travel down, just be sure to do a lot of reading and understand what you're doing prior to doing it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's a normal end user device, too. And for me the only choice. Don't like apple products at all. Don't want to buy a device and then not get updates. To be exactly, I want to know before I buy and not hope that Samsung, lg or whatever are so friendly to update. And, I don't like the modifications they do to the UI. So for me there is no other than Nexus. But I don't want this special fiddling experience. (For now. I will probably install a ROM on my Nexus 7 2012 some day)
According to this document
https://01.org/android-ia/user-guides/android-memory-tuning-android-5.0-and-5.1
64 bit indeed increases ram usage a lot...
I also have the impression that this is rather an issue with the Nvidia chipset or the general hardware design than with the system being 64bit.
This morning I had a very LOL moment when I read the Google Pixel C review of The Verve:
>>The specs are also huge: 3GB of RAM paired to the latest Nvidia X1 64-bit processor. That all seems good, but something is amiss with performance on the Pixel C. There are inexcusable pauses and latency, especially when launching and switching apps. <<
http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/8/9869980/google-pixel-c-tablet-review-android
So the problem still seems to be out of control. Too bad.
There are many threads about the Nexus 9 and memory issues but I have yet to see any reports of specific analysis of the issue on a problem device. I've had no memory issues with the Nexus 9, 7, 7(2013),5 and Asus tablets. I seen no evidence that there are hardware differences between Nexus 9's (except the pre release version tested for FCC emissions had a Miracast chip) and I believe it is down to the apps that users run. In support of this opinion:
Resets are recommended to clear the issues.
Google state at Investigating Your RAM Usage Although Dalvik and ART perform routine garbage collection (GC), this doesn’t mean you can ignore when and where your app allocates and releases memory. In order to provide a stable user experience that allows the system to quickly switch between apps, it is important that your app does not needlessly consume memory when the user is not interacting with it. Has anyone with memory issues looked at the recommended tests at the link above?
The quality of apps published. Anecdotal evidence (I hope it's wrong) that publishing an app on Google store can be done in 30 minutes but Apple requires "days". I've never owned an Apple product I'm just saying that to me, not a software developer, that the compliance standards imposed on the software tested may allow bad coding to slip through.