hi i have only just got the hero and was wondering how to close apps properly. i have noticed that when you hold the home key for a while a window pops up showing some apps ...is this how you close them? or is simply pressing the home key shutting them .
The long press on home just brings up a list of apps that have been recently run. It's almost a task switcher, but not quite!
Many apps will exit if you "back" out of them - i.e. when in the app keep pressing back until you get back to the home screen. However, this isn't the case for all applications. Some may have an explicit exit or close button, whereas others may have nothing at all.
However, Android is pretty good at managing its own applications, and will kill/exit them as necessary. In my experience, there's little to be gained from explicitly killing applications using a task killer, but some people swear by it.
Regards,
Dave
foxmeister said:
The long press on home just brings up a list of apps that have been recently run. It's almost a task switcher, but not quite!
Many apps will exit if you "back" out of them - i.e. when in the app keep pressing back until you get back to the home screen. However, this isn't the case for all applications. Some may have an explicit exit or close button, whereas others may have nothing at all.
However, Android is pretty good at managing its own applications, and will kill/exit them as necessary. In my experience, there's little to be gained from explicitly killing applications using a task killer, but some people swear by it.
Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most Task Killers free up memory thats used by background apps.
so basicly back out of the app and let android do the rest of the worring. thanks for advise
risterdid said:
Most Task Killers free up memory thats used by background apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, but the point is that Android itself will start killing applications if it starts to run low on resources. (see http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html)
Regards,
Dave
I'll attempt to sum it up once and for all, to try and set the record straight.
In Android's virtual machine, there is no functional differentiation between "closing" an app and "switching away from" an app. They are the same (the exception is things like music players which need to keep playing after you switch away from them, but even then only the 'service' part needs to keep running).
Whenever you switch away from an app, its current state is remembered so that even if it is effectively "killed" it can be returned to in just that state next time it's opened. Then Android either kills the process or it keeps it open, killing it when it needs the memory. You won't notice any difference between either scenario, except maybe that an app loads a little bit faster if it was kept in memory. At any rate, "closed" apps do not "run", and they do not take RAM or CPU cycles from other apps.
In terms of process/memory management, Android's VM has more in common with a web browser than a desktop OS - sure it can remember your state when you switch apps (like switching tabs, going back/forward/home in a browser) but whether behind the scenes it loads it all into and out of memory when you switch back and forth, or it all stays in memory is irrelevant to the user. Nobody worries that a long forum page on another tab or in their back button history is occupying 80 megs in the background or not, the browser takes care of loading/unloading it from RAM as needed, and that's just like how Android's VM works when switching between various pages of various apps.
Once you understand this you understand that all these 'task killer' apps are really unnecessary - all they'll do is make it slower to restart an app once closed. They don't reclaim RAM that was previously unavailable to other apps.
To cut a long story short, pressing "home" is a great way to close an app, whether you want to return to it later or not.
MercuryStar said:
Nobody worries that a long forum page on another tab or in their back button history is occupying 80 megs in the background or not, the browser takes care of loading/unloading it from RAM as needed, and that's just like how Android's VM works when switching between various pages of various apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is not true for me, my firefox can eat a lot of resources as long as it is open. and i can see a performance difference when having a lot of apps open on my hero. not that it would be a problem, but you can see the menus scrolling more "fluid" after killing all bg apps, for example.
kendong2 said:
you can see the menus scrolling more "fluid" after killing all bg apps, for example.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would wager that's the placebo effect. It feels faster because you believe it should. If you understand how the OS works you realise that apps you've switched away from do nothing to slow down or take memory from any other app (see my exception above about apps that launch background services such as music player).
kendong2 said:
that is not true for me, my firefox can eat a lot of resources as long as it is open. and i can see a performance difference when having a lot of apps open on my hero. not that it would be a problem, but you can see the menus scrolling more "fluid" after killing all bg apps, for example.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do notice this too. There is a general 'sluggishness' with my Hero when there are lots of app sleeping/running/hibernating/whatever in the background. As soon as I kill off a few unwanted ones, all the menus scroll faster and home screens change quicker.
And this is not the placebo effect either. The menu's DO scroll more fluidly after I have killed a few apps, regardless of how you describe the RAM management...
Micksta said:
And this is not the placebo effect either. The menu's DO scroll more fluidly after I have killed a few apps, regardless of how you describe the RAM management...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
exactly, you can tell easily if it is one motion or looks like it is "skipping frames". even it is only because it takes the device some cpu cycles to kill other apps, it does make a difference. like i said a rather cosmetic one, since it doesn't really effect the general usage. nevertheless i like to know what is running and what's not, and so far im running good with advanced task manager free.
WOW i didnt expect a massive response for my question but i thank you all for your responses
MercuryStar said:
I would wager that's the placebo effect. It feels faster because you believe it should. If you understand how the OS works you realise that apps you've switched away from do nothing to slow down or take memory from any other app (see my exception above about apps that launch background services such as music player).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's not true, my phone gets so sluggish sometimes that i can't answer a phone call, the phone doesn't register that i press the answer button. and when that happends i usually have like 20 mb of free ram.
Daniehabazin said:
that's not true, my phone gets so sluggish sometimes that i can't answer a phone call, the phone doesn't register that i press the answer button. and when that happends i usually have like 20 mb of free ram.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just as a matter of interest, do you use swapper or AppsToSD?
My phone never gets into the situation you've described, but even though I do have the full version of TasKiller, I almost never use it, and I don't see a need at present to use AppsToSD.
In addition, I'd imagine that having a swap partition would cause an issue with Androids own memory management, since I guess it can't distinguish between real and "virtual" memory. So where a "non-swap" device would start killing processes, a "swap" device would just continue on regardless because it thinks it still has physical memory available.
Regards,
Dave
Yesterday I downloaded "Advanced Task Killer Free"... anyone who has experiences with this? Is is better than just "Task Killer" or is it just an updated version of "Task Killer" ?
thanks!
have been using atk free for a while (lol 2 weeks since i got the hero) now, i really like it. its advantage over all other task managers IMHO: it has an ignore list, things you ignore are not shown in the running tasks list. in the list you have check boxes, where you can select the tasks that will be killed, and this list is remembered. for example "htc sense" is on my ignore list, but "music" is only checked, so i can uncheck it when i don't want to kill it while listening to music. next time i want to kill music i just have to tap the checkbox, no dealing with the ignore list here...
Daniehabazin said:
that's not true, my phone gets so sluggish sometimes that i can't answer a phone call, the phone doesn't register that i press the answer button. and when that happends i usually have like 20 mb of free ram.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I get this problem a lot, and in answer to fox meister, I don't have AppsToSD.
I don't know if the problem is RAM or CPU related, but the CPU often jumps to 100% when things are really slow.
Is the issue likely to be background apps, or widgets even?
Sausageman said:
I get this problem a lot, and in answer to fox meister, I don't have AppsToSD.
I don't know if the problem is RAM or CPU related, but the CPU often jumps to 100% when things are really slow.
Is the issue likely to be background apps, or widgets even?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same for me with the processor.
When i reboot my phone i usually have 90 mb of free ram, after starting a few applications, like browser and phonebook, it plummets down to 20 mb.
I do have some extra applications that starts as services, like systray monitor and 3g watchdog.
when i open atk after a fresh reboot i see that some applications that i don't even use is started, like footprints, settings and calendar, even my webrowser is started, whats up with that, can it be disabled?
I think the issue is that we have some applications that autostart withous us using them, and also programs that we download that autostarts as services and maybe having memory leaks...
I came to chime in with my experiences of the CDMA hero and sluggishness.
I watch memory like a hawk (thanks Mogul) and I too have around 80-90mb free ram on start, but it can get down to around 30 rather quickly. Once it gets down here, I notice that screen transitions and random lag occurs in apps. If I go into Advanced Task Killer and kill many of the stragglers, my menus are as smooth as can be.
It is most certainly NOT a placebo effect.
One thing I really like about Advanced Task Killer (pay version) is that it has the "Auto End" feature, where it will kill all apps not chosen to be excluded at the interval that you choose. For example, I have determined the system applications that need to be on all the time, and I've excluded those. Every hour, ATK kills everything else. For the most part, my Hero hovers around 70MB now at all times, although it can get down there to around 30-40MB if I'm right around the 1 hour mark.
That feature alone makes it much better than Taskiller IMO. Totally worth 99 cents
This definition would imply that android works exactly like the iphone osx? I mean saving "screenshots" of the last state of an app. But NOT having real multitasking?
Because it's not possible to have multitasking and at the same time "inactive" background apps everytime you hit the home button...
MercuryStar said:
I'll attempt to sum it up once and for all, to try and set the record straight.
In Android's virtual machine, there is no functional differentiation between "closing" an app and "switching away from" an app. They are the same (the exception is things like music players which need to keep playing after you switch away from them, but even then only the 'service' part needs to keep running).
Whenever you switch away from an app, its current state is remembered so that even if it is effectively "killed" it can be returned to in just that state next time it's opened. Then Android either kills the process or it keeps it open, killing it when it needs the memory. You won't notice any difference between either scenario, except maybe that an app loads a little bit faster if it was kept in memory. At any rate, "closed" apps do not "run", and they do not take RAM or CPU cycles from other apps.
In terms of process/memory management, Android's VM has more in common with a web browser than a desktop OS - sure it can remember your state when you switch apps (like switching tabs, going back/forward/home in a browser) but whether behind the scenes it loads it all into and out of memory when you switch back and forth, or it all stays in memory is irrelevant to the user. Nobody worries that a long forum page on another tab or in their back button history is occupying 80 megs in the background or not, the browser takes care of loading/unloading it from RAM as needed, and that's just like how Android's VM works when switching between various pages of various apps.
Once you understand this you understand that all these 'task killer' apps are really unnecessary - all they'll do is make it slower to restart an app once closed. They don't reclaim RAM that was previously unavailable to other apps.
To cut a long story short, pressing "home" is a great way to close an app, whether you want to return to it later or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Shahpur.Azizpour said:
This definition would imply that android works exactly like the iphone osx? I mean saving "screenshots" of the last state of an app. But NOT having real multitasking?
Because it's not possible to have multitasking and at the same time "inactive" background apps everytime you hit the home button...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you've not understood the explanation.
The iPhone will always* terminate an application that isn't on its list of "approved" multi-tasking apps once it isn't active any more (i.e. you've switched tasks).
Android will try to keep whatever it can in memory, but eventually will start killing processes in order to keep the system running.
So, if you're on an iPhone listening to something on Spotify and you want to browse something on the web, the iPhone will "kill" Spotify when you switch to the web browser. On Android this won't occur except in the most critical of resource low situations, but then again, I'd imagine other apps would get killed before Spotify.
Read this article, specifically the section from "Component Lifecycles" onwards specifically "Activity Lifecycle", "Saving activity state" and "Processes and lifecycles".
Regards,
Dave
* Unless it has been jailbroken!
Related
Hey Everyone,
Just got my Droid Eris yesterday and I'm having fun exploring the phone and checking everything out.
One question, I noticed that many apps (in fact, almost all) don't have a direct "Quit" or "Exit" command. So I'm usually pressing "back" or "home" when I'm done with something. This left me wondering though... when I use "back" or "home", does the app actually exit? From what I can tell, it doesn't... so does the OS automatically clean up these apps from time to time? I came from WinMo 6.1, and it was irritating that everything defaulted to running in the background. How does Android treat it? Is there something special in this regard with the HTC Sense UI? I've seen there are some third-party task manager apps you can get... are they worth getting? Or just "let the phone do it's thing" and i will be fine?
Thanks!
I use a Task Manager from the Market called "Taskiller." But I'm still trying to figure out how the Hero handles the apps because sometimes it gets sluggish and taskiller helps out but then theres other times when I have all sorts of apps open and it runs smoothly, lol, I guess it just works sometimes.
I wonder if it's like the iPhone, where it kills the task when you hit the "Home" button. It doesn't seem like it, as some apps seem to just come up instantly when go back in them, as if I was "switching" to them, and no re-opening them...
false_apology said:
I wonder if it's like the iPhone, where it kills the task when you hit the "Home" button. It doesn't seem like it, as some apps seem to just come up instantly when go back in them, as if I was "switching" to them, and no re-opening them...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I dont think thats the case because Android has a special way of "Multitasking," though I'm not completely informed so you might have to research that on your own. But like I said download a Task Manager from the market so you can see how much available memory there is.
By default, Android applications never really "close" as their components can be called upon at any time. (Android applications are structured to be very modular, allowing individual components to be used from each.) When an application needs memory immediately, and another hasn't used it for a while, it shoves the old app into what's called swap space (presumably it's on your SD card) while the new one takes over. This is why you'll occasionally see a delay while performing a "hard" operation (like opening an app) while the system is under heavy load. That's the old app's memory getting written out to temporary storage and the other one taking it over.
At least this is my understanding of the situation.
From what I've heard Android (linux) does a much better job of managing the memory used by our apps. And, that we "...shouldn't have to use a task killer..." to close out apps that are running in the background, especially on our phones.
For instance, the myTouch 3G usually only gets about 20-30 MB of RAM freed after a full clean up of background apps, the Eris will have about 80+ MB after a cleanup and they both feel about the same to me.
I still use Task Panel to close my apps sometimes because I just like starting fresh in an app from time to time. Also if things start getting fishy (screen stuttering, touch screen not working properly) I'll kill all running apps to see if it fixes the problem which in some cases it just does not and a reboot is still required.
I have found that by holding the home key it will bring up all the apps so you can switch to the one that you want so it is still running them in the background.
refthemc said:
I use a Task Manager from the Market called "Taskiller." But I'm still trying to figure out how the Hero handles the apps because sometimes it gets sluggish and taskiller helps out but then theres other times when I have all sorts of apps open and it runs smoothly, lol, I guess it just works sometimes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i use a Task application called Task Manager. It gives lists of all Applications running, all process and even has an uninstall feature. It also has a auto end application feature but on my eris it's greyed out(maybe Pro only?)
Here are a couple of links that I found on this subject. Don't mind that it says Hero in the thread title it talks about android phones in general. Also something to look into once we get the Eris rooted in the second link.
Task Managers and your Hero by romeosidvicious @androidforums.com
How to configure Android's *internal* taskkiller by androcheck @xda-developers.com
I am new to Android - just got a Droid 3.
How do I stop the system from auto-killing a certain app? When I play Angry Birds, if the phone goes to sleep on timeout, when I turn it back on, the App has to re-load from scratch (rather than opening to where I left off last time). I'm assuming the system decided to kill it for lack of memory, but how do I STOP it from doing that (like an ignore list)?
Will I need a third party app?
Any help is appreciated!
not really. the Android system does a pretty good job of reclaiming unused memory. ive been dealing with this for a while trying to keep a replacement lock screen in memory
Sounds like Verizon installed a task killer. I know their employees do that saying you need one. But you don't. Make sure you uninstall it. It is most likely set to kill apps off ever x minutes. Usually Android keeps foreground apps in memory for a long time unless the system needs it. But doesn't sound like it would. I wonder what the Droid 3 memory settings are for stock now. I have the Evo 3D and they are set at a higher threshold(as I'm kills unused apps sooner) compared to my older HTC phones(Evo and Hero). How long do you let the phone sit idle before coming back?
Sent from my iPhone with the bigger GeeBees.
notasimpleway said:
Sounds like Verizon installed a task killer. I know their employees do that saying you need one. But you don't. Make sure you uninstall it. It is most likely set to kill apps off ever x minutes. Usually Android keeps foreground apps in memory for a long time unless the system needs it. But doesn't sound like it would. I wonder what the Droid 3 memory settings are for stock now. I have the Evo 3D and they are set at a higher threshold(as I'm kills unused apps sooner) compared to my older HTC phones(Evo and Hero). How long do you let the phone sit idle before coming back?
Sent from my iPhone with the bigger GeeBees.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not obvious which program that would be - there's nothing called Task Killer. Plus, most of the VZW bloatware can't be uninstalled anyway. Apart from rooting (locked bootloader on Droid 3), what can I do to force it to stay open?
Also, it gets killed immediately on turning off the phone. As in, I start the game, hit sleep, hit wake a second later and the game reloads from scratch. Very irritating.
Any thoughts are appreciated, thanks!
jbroses said:
It's not obvious which program that would be - there's nothing called Task Killer. Plus, most of the VZW bloatware can't be uninstalled anyway. Apart from rooting (locked bootloader on Droid 3), what can I do to force it to stay open?
Also, it gets killed immediately on turning off the phone. As in, I start the game, hit sleep, hit wake a second later and the game reloads from scratch. Very irritating.
Any thoughts are appreciated, thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just tested this with Angry Birds from the time I posted till just now and it was right where I left the game. It may be called Advanced Task Manager. Or something like that. And you should be able to uninstall it. It would have been installed by the person selling the phone and not at the factory.
Sent from my iPhone with the bigger GeeBees.
Go to the Market, download Spare Parts. Open and scroll down to Activity/Process Management. Select normal. It may not have been the problem, but worth a shot. Are you hitting the home button before putting the phone to sleep? What do you see immediately upon turning the screen on and unlocking the phone? Angry Birds? The home screen?
Sent from my iPhone with the bigger GeeBees.
When you haven't used an app for a long time, Android automatically recycles all open activities from the app, except the root activity.
By default, every application runs in its own Linux process. Android starts the process when any of the application’s code needs to be executed, and shuts down the process when it’s no longer needed and system resources are required by other applications.
[...]
If the user leaves a task for a long time, the system clears the task of all activities except the root activity. When the user returns to the task again, it’s as the user left it, except that only the initial activity is present. The idea is that, after a time, users will likely have abandoned what they were doing before and are returning to the task to begin something new
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ (sorry I can't make a link yet)
Shinigami20 said:
When you haven't used an app for a long time, Android automatically recycles all open activities from the app, except the root activity.
From geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ (sorry I can't make a link yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it actually happens instantly. in other words - open angry birds, begin level. sleep phone, wake phone. angry birds reloads from the beginning. this is all within the span of 5 secs.
i thought it might be my lock screen - widgetlock, but i disabled that and it just happened again, this time with opera mini as i was writing this. I was writing this post, went to a text, came back to opera within 30 secs and it had shut down and reopened (no tab with my partially composed message).
is the droid 3 just shutting things down more aggressively? is there a way to tweak that? maybe too much other crap is running and I should get a task killer? thoughts?
jbroses said:
it actually happens instantly. in other words - open angry birds, begin level. sleep phone, wake phone. angry birds reloads from the beginning. this is all within the span of 5 secs.
i thought it might be my lock screen - widgetlock, but i disabled that and it just happened again, this time with opera mini as i was writing this. I was writing this post, went to a text, came back to opera within 30 secs and it had shut down and reopened (no tab with my partially composed message).
is the droid 3 just shutting things down more aggressively? is there a way to tweak that? maybe too much other crap is running and I should get a task killer? thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do not sleep your device, try entering level then return to home switch to other apps. Then open angry bird again and see what happen
On my desire Z, it kill the app every time i sleep the phone. Keep the phone alive then I have 3 apps running at same time without being killed. But it's not likely that I have RAM shortage. 3 apps is constant no matter what apps
Flipz explains that well. Autokiller is a great little app to adjust those settings. Used it for over two years now. I actually got to watch that app evolve. Great dev. Only works if you are rooted.
Shinigami20 said:
When you haven't used an app for a long time, Android automatically recycles all open activities from the app, except the root activity.
From geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/ (sorry I can't make a link yet)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my iPhone with the bigger GeeBees.
Thanks for all the responses. I've tried to address them all:
Spare Parts - I installed this and set the Activity to Normal (it WAS set on aggressive). Unfortunately, this didn't help.
Press the Home key - Pressing the Home key and then going back to Angry Birds DOES work. It picks up right where you left off. Unfortunately, when the phone goes to sleep, it restarts Angry Birds on waking.
What do I see when I wake the phone - It goes to my WidgetLocker lock screen. Once unlocked, the very first thing that shows up is the Angry Birds "Rovio" loading screen. No home screen in between.
Any other thoughts are much appreciated! Is there any way to simply exempt Angry Birds from being closed by the system automatically? It seems like this should be possible!
Can you try something out for me? I want to give evidence to my theory.
Download another 3d game, load a level, then sleep the device. See if there's a lot of stuttering/reloading when you wake the device back up.
Any news on this? I got the same problem with CM 9.1 on my Doubleshot (aka M4GS). When I have like 10 tabs or so opened in Opera, Android kills the task. But not when I put it into sleep, but right when I'm browsing! That's really annoying since after restarting Opera I have to reopen every single tab manually from the history.
Already tried Spare Parts, but it doesn't offer some kinda whitelist for apps that shouldn't be autokilled.
It's really frustrating, Android's autokilling feature was one of the few things, that I didn't like about that OS when I switched from Windows Mobile to Android a few years ago. And I still hate that feature. Why can't I decide by myself which apps to be closed and which ones not? Give back the power to the user I say!
At least there HAS to be a solution to force Anddroid, not to kill a specified app (e.g. Opera) and kill all the other running apps instead. Any 3rd Party task killer has some kinda ignore list, so how could Android be tweaked to do the same?
Shani Ace said:
Any news on this? I got the same problem with CM 9.1 on my Doubleshot (aka M4GS). When I have like 10 tabs or so opened in Opera, Android kills the task. But not when I put it into sleep, but right when I'm browsing! That's really annoying since after restarting Opera I have to reopen every single tab manually from the history.
Already tried Spare Parts, but it doesn't offer some kinda whitelist for apps that shouldn't be autokilled.
It's really frustrating, Android's autokilling feature was one of the few things, that I didn't like about that OS when I switched from Windows Mobile to Android a few years ago. And I still hate that feature. Why can't I decide by myself which apps to be closed and which ones not? Give back the power to the user I say!
At least there HAS to be a solution to force Anddroid, not to kill a specified app (e.g. Opera) and kill all the other running apps instead. Any 3rd Party task killer has some kinda ignore list, so how could Android be tweaked to do the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. I was downloading a file in Opera, switched to other apps, then went back to opera and it reopened.. Needless to say the download failed. This really sucks.
Use titanium and freeze the stock task manager (if any).
Android, by default, keeps only 3 (correct me if I'm wrong) applications' sessions in memory, but that's obviously no reason for it to kill angry birds right after the display is closed.
Try installing Minfree (I think it's available on the Play Store) to understand when and why Android is killing the application. It'll give you the parameters on which the Android Auto killer operates, but you will need ROOT to be able to edit them.
And no, there isn't a way to earmark an application such that it isn't killed, at least, not that I know of.
Hope this helps.
Haters gonna hate
potatoes gonna potate.
Check out v6 supercharger and all ur questions will be answered.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=991276
sent from my DNA
jbroses said:
I am new to Android - just got a Droid 3.
How do I stop the system from auto-killing a certain app? When I play Angry Birds, if the phone goes to sleep on timeout, when I turn it back on, the App has to re-load from scratch (rather than opening to where I left off last time). I'm assuming the system decided to kill it for lack of memory, but how do I STOP it from doing that (like an ignore list)?
Will I need a third party app?
Any help is appreciated!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, excuse me for not reading other posts and replying directly but wanted to share something that works for me and does not kill certain launched apps. Open any app, then come out of the app and tap on recent apps button and you will see the apps that are currently launched. Depending on your OS and model, are you able to lock an app (by slightly dragging the app icon down and then tapping on the lock icon). I did that for one of the games and surprisingly even after several minutes, I was able to continue from exactly where I left off. Hope this helps. Let me know.
Screenshot: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9Bs7dxj7t3o/VZHLFAF6fdI/AAAAAAABI0Q/WXFhUv1c2gw/s1600/IMG_0023.JPG
Hi all,
I just got my Transformer Prime this week, and as a new user both of Android (my phone is a WP7 device) and of tablets in general, I do have a couple of questions that maybe you guys can help me with...
1) Shut it down or not?
Being a tablet something in between my phone and my laptop, I'm still not sure exactly how to manage it. I know this will come with experience, but do you guys leave it always on like your phone or do you shut down like a laptop? I actually only hibernate my laptop, but I don't know how to do that on my TP... is it possible?
2) Services: my battery and OS responsiveness
OK, so I got my TP and started downloading apps... Skype and Facebook were one of the firsts. I quickly realized that, by default, after opening them for the 1st time, they kept giving me notifications, even if I swiped them left of the task manager (i.e. closed them, AFAIK). This is OK for Skype, but I really don't want Facebook bothering me that much, so I disabled notifications on its settings. Is that all that is needed to remove these permanent services? Does the "services" tab under Settings -> Applications really show everything that is running or can some apps hide from there?
3) Closing apps: should I care about it or not?
I still didn't fully understand how "closing apps" work on Android (ICS at least). If I have an app with notifications enabled (i.e. its service is enabled, right?), even if I close it from the task manager, the notifications keep coming. However, if notifications are disabled, is swiping them left from the task manager REALLY closing them? At the end of the day, to improve battery and responsiveness, should I keep closing my unused apps?
4) Launcher: Is ICS launcher the best for tablets?
This is actually part of a more general question, coming below. But anyway, I read that the ICS launcher is much improved from previous Android versions, and at the same time I didn't find a good launcher comparison for tablets only. Many of the launchers reviews only apply them for phones, and only compare them to the Gingerbread launcher (or some device-specific launcher). Since many of the launchers are paid apps, I would like to know: is there any launcher that is really worth trying in my new TP? What do you guys use?
5) Tablet-optimized apps???
I don't have my TP for even a week and I'm already tired of reading great things about an app, only to download it and see that it is not optimized for tablets at all. So, is there any good source of info/reviews on tablet-optimized apps?
Many thanks!
Leo.
1) Shut it down or not?
Personally, I always leave mine tablet running. There is a price to pay from a battery perspective when shutting down / starting up, so unless you know you are not going to be using it for an extended period of time, I would recommend leaving it on.
2) Services: my battery and OS responsiveness
I believe the 'Services' tab will show all the user app services that are running, but I am not sure if you can permanently prevent them from starting back up with ICS. I have seen task manager apps in the market that can prevent services from starting up. In all reality though, if you are concerned about background services draining your battery, the Prime has excellent battery life to begin with, especially if you have the dock, so if I was you I wouldn't get too worked up over the background services. Now if we were talking about a smart phone here (like my Thunderbolt for example which has horrible battery life), I would be much more concerned about this type of thing as I would want to do anything possible to squeeze as much life out of my battery just to get through an entire day.
3) Closing apps: should I care about it or not?
From my understanding swiping an app on the Recent Apps tray won't actually kill the process. Swiping an app from the Recent Apps tray more or less just removes the app from the list of Recent Apps. ICS automatically takes care of shutting down processes and releasing memory when appropriate. If you want to manually kill an app you can Force Close it from the list of apps from the Settings -> Applications menu. But again, my personal preference is to let ICS do its thing and take care of process management. I will remove apps from the Recent Apps tray just keep the tray less cluttered with apps that I don't use or need to switch to that often but I normally won't kill apps manually from the task manager.
On a side note, I would think removing an app from the Recent Apps tray would signal the OS that I am not going to be using the app again any time soon and the OS is free to shut down the process and release its memory, but I am not sure if this is what happens or not. All I know is that I have read elsewhere that removing an app from the Recent Apps tray will not immediately kill the process.
4) Launcher: Is ICS launcher the best for tablets?
Personally, I really like ICS so I haven't tried any of the other launchers that are out there (on the tablet side of things anyways). I used the GO Launcher on my phone for a little while but ended up switching back to the default HTC Sense launcher. This is one of the things I love about Android though; the ability to totally change the look and feel the device by simply customizing and switching between different launchers. If I ever get tired or bored with ICS, I can download a new launcher and just like that, everything will seem new and fresh again.
5) Tablet-optimized apps???
This is one of the big problems with Android and the Android Market right now; not just the small selection of tablet optimized apps but being able to find these apps in the Market. There is an 'editors top picks for tablet apps' section or something like that in the Android Market that I have used. Unfortunately, many of the apps in there are not that great, but at least they are optimized for tablets. Typically I will just do a google search for 'top android tablet apps' to get a feel for some of the best tablet optimized apps that are out there.
Try the Tablified website or app to find tablet optimized apps. Can't download directly from there, but the install link will take you to the market page for whatever app you want.
http://www.tablified.com
jordache16 said:
1) Shut it down or not?
Personally, I always leave mine tablet running. There is a price to pay from a battery perspective when shutting down / starting up, so unless you know you are not going to be using it for an extended period of time, I would recommend leaving it on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, thanks for taking the time to reply me! Anyway, my point was exactly about the times when I will not use it for an extented period, like when I go to bed or something... But I guess since I don't want any notifications when I'm sleeping, I think it is wiser to shut it down. On the other hand, is there a quick-way to completely silence the tablet, i.e. turn off the volume AND the vibrations?
jordache16 said:
2) Services: my battery and OS responsiveness
I believe the 'Services' tab will show all the user app services that are running, but I am not sure if you can permanently prevent them from starting back up with ICS. I have seen task manager apps in the market that can prevent services from starting up. In all reality though, if you are concerned about background services draining your battery, the Prime has excellent battery life to begin with, especially if you have the dock, so if I was you I wouldn't get too worked up over the background services. Now if we were talking about a smart phone here (like my Thunderbolt for example which has horrible battery life), I would be much more concerned about this type of thing as I would want to do anything possible to squeeze as much life out of my battery just to get through an entire day.
3) Closing apps: should I care about it or not?
From my understanding swiping an app on the Recent Apps tray won't actually kill the process. Swiping an app from the Recent Apps tray more or less just removes the app from the list of Recent Apps. ICS automatically takes care of shutting down processes and releasing memory when appropriate. If you want to manually kill an app you can Force Close it from the list of apps from the Settings -> Applications menu. But again, my personal preference is to let ICS do its thing and take care of process management. I will remove apps from the Recent Apps tray just keep the tray less cluttered with apps that I don't use or need to switch to that often but I normally won't kill apps manually from the task manager.
On a side note, I would think removing an app from the Recent Apps tray would signal the OS that I am not going to be using the app again any time soon and the OS is free to shut down the process and release its memory, but I am not sure if this is what happens or not. All I know is that I have read elsewhere that removing an app from the Recent Apps tray will not immediately kill the process.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hum, ok, I will try to freak out less about open apps. What's still bugs me, for instance, is the behavior of Google Talk vs. Skype. After turning the tablet on, Skype doesn't open automatically, and after I open it, it will gracefully inform-me of its status on the notifications bar. However, today I just got surprised by a incoming IM from Google Talk, even if I did'nt open it! I realized that it is hidden under "Google Services" in the app list, but there is no setting in the app to disable it from running on start-up! I can only "sign out"... Anyway, on the other hand, there's no setting to have Skype launch automatically on start up...
jordache16 said:
4) Launcher: Is ICS launcher the best for tablets?
Personally, I really like ICS so I haven't tried any of the other launchers that are out there (on the tablet side of things anyways). I used the GO Launcher on my phone for a little while but ended up switching back to the default HTC Sense launcher. This is one of the things I love about Android though; the ability to totally change the look and feel the device by simply customizing and switching between different launchers. If I ever get tired or bored with ICS, I can download a new launcher and just like that, everything will seem new and fresh again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll second that. I've quickly used the Iphone 4 a couple of times and its dullness just bores me to death... hehe
jordache16 said:
5) Tablet-optimized apps???
This is one of the big problems with Android and the Android Market right now; not just the small selection of tablet optimized apps but being able to find these apps in the Market. There is an 'editors top picks for tablet apps' section or something like that in the Android Market that I have used. Unfortunately, many of the apps in there are not that great, but at least they are optimized for tablets. Typically I will just do a google search for 'top android tablet apps' to get a feel for some of the best tablet optimized apps that are out there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I saw that, but I hate that I cannot filter that list between apps and games... stupid Google or stupid me? hehe
wikedawsum said:
Try the Tablified website or app to find tablet optimized apps. Can't download directly from there, but the install link will take you to the market page for whatever app you want.
http://www.tablified.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the tip! I'm cheking it out right now...
reguarding open apps
At times i noticed my stock launcher was laggy to switch between screens. After swiping to close the recent apps it was a lot more responsive, so i think that swiping the apps from the recent list does close them, at least in mose cases.
As to optimization apps, usually they are intended for phones running older software. You need to remember that every phone (aside from the google phones) is running a slightly different version of android.
Since each version of android is different, even between the Froyo on my phone and your phone, because they have different modifications on them there is a chance that the customized software on my phone may be better at handling unused tasks than your phone (in fact HTC phones by default have a LOT of running processes in the background, whereas Samsung phones generally have fewer).
A lot of these optimization apps do several things:
Turn off wifi and bluetooth when not needed
Close tasks when they are unused
lower screen brightness
turn off 3g and use 2g if available and not in a call
Now this may be excellent for your phone, it spends most of its time in your pocket, soon as you unlock it it can connect to wifi again, turn on bluetooth, etc.
HOWEVER!
If you have, say, the weather widget, or a clock, or in my case battery monitor pro, and the task killer is killing those tasks those widgets will no longer update.
Some tasks, like Maps, tend to start up automatically, meaning your wasting MORE battery life closing this app and then it restarts and you have to close it again. It takes less battery life having it run in the background.
Sometimes an app will close (like the browser) that your not fully done using. Theres a difference between the app being frozen in memory and fully closed. Both do not require much power, however when you open that process again the frozen one takes a LOT less battery than the unfrozen one.
On a tablet, having a case that has a magnet in the apropriate spot and, say, tasker (very good app for custimizing your own triggers to turn things on and off) to detect that sensor and shut off wifi, gps, bluetooth, etc. would be very cool. Many apps use the proximity sensor to detect if its in a pocket and shut off everything, or the lockscreen. Because the way a tablet is used many of these battery saver apps will actually use more battery than what would be used in the first place.
You also have to remember that as android advances there are more tweaks for battery life put into them. For instance, you can have ICS close tasks that are not being used right away to save memory and its pretty good about freezing things in background memory.
Older versions of android lacked these features, or they were poorly implimented. I remember on my vibrant i was always going back to make sure all my tasks were closed properly when i was done with them. With newer devices its not an issue android takes care of that for me.
TLDR: Try as many battery saver apps as you like, just be warey as to what devices they are designed for and what version of android they were made for. Doesnt mean they wont work, just means they may do something thats useless for using on a tablet.
1) Shut it down or not?
Never. We got the companion core for a reason.
2) Services: my battery and OS responsiveness
No, everything is shown except core processes. You can get systempanel if you want to see.
3) Closing apps: should I care about it or not?
Don't unless you somehow got froyo or eclair onto your tablet.
4) Launcher: Is ICS launcher the best for tablets?
Depends on your tastes. I would suggest trying all of them.
5) Tablet-optimized apps???
What the other people said.
1) Mine is always on. I shut down when I expect it to be idle for a long time or when I want maximum battery conservation while idle. Pressing the power button is as close as you get to hibernate, officially with Android. I'm interested to know if any of the usual Linux power management stuff applies to these systems or if it's tied to ACPI (A PC thing), and if there would be a way to wake the system. It's certainly not supported by ASUS .
2) Google how Android services work and about the application life cycle. For the most part things like Facebook don't do all that much harm, unless it is dealing with a lot of data. If you do not want it to run and the application lacks a setting for turning the service off, uninstall the app. A startup manager may or may not be able to help but be warned: auto task killers are generally bad, you would actually want to manage the startup services not auto kill them!
3) No. Android will take care of this OK. Closing apps generally refers to the "Activity" not the service. Android has taken decent care of that since at least version 2.2 and this tablet runs 4.0.3 . Swipping stuff out of the multi-task menu is most useful for keeping it tidy, it will not generally improve your life in most cases. For a good explanation you should look for a post Dianne Hackborn reshared on G+, I believe Android Police even carried it.
4) Depends on what is best for you. It's great except for the lack of customization. Nova Launcher offers a bit more. ICS's launcher versus e.g. GB's is almost what could be called a basic custom launcher, i.e. all the important stuff is there but you can't tweak the hell out of it. For more serious work try ADW Launcher Ex (scrolling widgets currently broken) or Go (not quite fully tablet optimized yet but works). I use ADW Launcher Ex, and there is a free version with less features.
5) Tablified Market and XDA usually helps I guess. I rarely have problems except with rarely updated stuff.
Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk
How can I do this? I noticed yesterday that my scramble with friends app with only 2 games, was taking up 135Mb RAM. I'm sure there's another issue behind there, but this got me noticing other apps that don't need to always be open and running, but for some reason are. How can I stop these apps from auto launching and running in the background?
cgibsong002 said:
How can I do this? I noticed yesterday that my scramble with friends app with only 2 games, was taking up 135Mb RAM. I'm sure there's another issue behind there, but this got me noticing other apps that don't need to always be open and running, but for some reason are. How can I stop these apps from auto launching and running in the background?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because something is loaded doesnt mean its actually running. Android takes programs that are often used and load them into RAM so that they are ready and waiting when you want to run them. They are then dropped out of memory when that memory is needed for something else. Read up on memory management to get a better idea. If you want to kill it anyways, you can probably just use Titanium to freeze it, but this requires root.
Thanks for the response. I'm rooted and also running RAM manager. It seems that certain programs are taking up my RAM that don't need to be. Another example, words with friends, was in my RAM usage after reboot, and I've never even used this game before. Games like scramble with friends I'd imagine always need to be running or in active RAM since that game has notifications and built in messaging. But I don't need to constantly have that app checking for new data. I tried setting the in app settings to check every few hours rather than 5 minutes, but it was still shown as taking 130MB of RAM usage (though the number is normal now after reboot).
So, it sounds like there is no way.. or what you're saying is more of, no need? I just don't want a bunch of little used apps taking up my active memory.
cgibsong002 said:
Thanks for the response. I'm rooted and also running RAM manager. It seems that certain programs are taking up my RAM that don't need to be. Another example, words with friends, was in my RAM usage after reboot, and I've never even used this game before. Games like scramble with friends I'd imagine always need to be running or in active RAM since that game has notifications and built in messaging. But I don't need to constantly have that app checking for new data. I tried setting the in app settings to check every few hours rather than 5 minutes, but it was still shown as taking 130MB of RAM usage (though the number is normal now after reboot).
So, it sounds like there is no way.. or what you're saying is more of, no need? I just don't want a bunch of little used apps taking up my active memory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No real need. Android sees that you use this app a good bit so it preloads it, and it's sitting there in unused RAM untill it's either called upon to run or untill another process needs that RAM that its using.The application is not running and that RAM would otherwise be sitting unused, so there's no need to get rid of it unless it happened to be a suspicious application. This process is what gets alot of folks all wound up about never having enough RAM because they think that almost all of their RAM is being used for running processes when in reality this isn't really true, kinda half true.
Download Autostarts from the Market, it will let you prevent apps from starting automatically.
And what Chief Geek said is true, he's missing a big part of the picture, and I see statements like his all the time. Yes Android does a good job of loading things in and out of memory as needed. However, if there is crap you don't care about coming in and out of memory all the time, then that means Android is going to dump stuff out of memory that you DO care about (browser, games, etc.) So if you have a bunch of extra crap running, that means if you pause a game, check and email, and come back, Android may have released it from memory and you have to wait for it to reload. If you cut back on the things that are constantly running, it will keep more of your apps that you care about in memory longer, meaning when you go back to that game they will be there right away.
The more stuff you can prevent from running the better. I use Titanium Backup to freeze stuff I will never use. I use autostarts to prevent certain apps from running at startup that I don't want to - Maps, Facebook, etc. Doing this gives me tons of extra free RAM which translates to more useful multitasking.
EvoXOhio said:
And what Chief Geek said is true, he's missing a big part of the picture, and I see statements like his all the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand where your coming from, as this is a very common argument, but what you didn't mention is your method favors empty/available RAM for multitasking while sacrificing fast launches leading to some folks experiencing a laggy system. I completely agree with freezing the junk as the bloat always seems to have pointless priority, but I feel as once these steps are taken that android does a perfectly fine job of managing RAM. Very rarely do I have to wait for applications to reopen as I'm jumping back and forth between them and never have trouble multitasking. I'm not going to be curt and say your theory is wrong, I'll leave it as just another way of running your device as it certainley has it's merits, but I don't agree that it's for the average user who is more likey to be jumping from one app to another and not back and forth between the same ones needing all the data to be exactly where they left it.
Chief Geek said:
I understand where your coming from, as this is a very common argument, but what you didn't mention is your method favors empty/available RAM for multitasking while sacrificing fast launches leading to some folks experiencing a laggy system. I completely agree with freezing the junk as the bloat always seems to have pointless priority, but I feel as once these steps are taken that android does a perfectly fine job of managing RAM. Very rarely do I have to wait for applications to reopen as I'm jumping back and forth between them and never have trouble multitasking. I'm not going to be curt and say your theory is wrong, I'll leave it as just another way of running your device as it certainley has it's merits, but I don't agree that it's for the average user who is more likey to be jumping from one app to another and not back and forth between the same ones needing all the data to be exactly where they left it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're misunderstanding what I am saying. I am suggesting to prevent apps you don't care about from getting loaded into memory automatically at startup. By doing that, it means more free memory for the system, which means better multitasking.
My method doesn't sacrifice fast launches at all. If anything, by having more free memory, it means more applications will remain in memory, which equals better multitasking and faster relaunches. Initial launches will be the same either way.
I am NOT suggesting to prevent apps you care about from autostarting - just the crap that you never use nor care about. Maybe that's where you misunderstood me.
EvoXOhio said:
You're misunderstanding what I am saying. I am suggesting to prevent apps you don't care about from getting loaded into memory automatically at startup. By doing that, it means more free memory for the system, which means better multitasking.
My method doesn't sacrifice fast launches at all. If anything, by having more free memory, it means more applications will remain in memory, which equals better multitasking and faster relaunches. Initial launches will be the same either way.
I am NOT suggesting to prevent apps you care about from autostarting - just the crap that you never use nor care about. Maybe that's where you misunderstood me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I appologize for the misunderstanding, I assumed that since we were discussing an app that he says he does use that you meant to prevent apps such as this all together. Such is an argument that some make in an attempt to maximize the amount of available unused RAM.
Chief Geek said:
I appologize for the misunderstanding, I assumed that since we were discussing an app that he says he does use that you meant to prevent apps such as this all together. Such is an argument that some make in an attempt to maximize the amount of available unused RAM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was addressing what he said here:
but this got me noticing other apps that don't need to always be open and running, but for some reason are. How can I stop these apps from auto launching and running in the background?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But in all honesty, if his app is using 135MB of RAM when doing nothing, it is probably better off being prevented from running in the background entirely. 135MB is less than 1/3 of the free RAM on the system after a fresh boot.
I been using system tuner pro. You can freezes apps stop them from start up. It also has a task manager that you can choose which apps run what you want to kill.you can also exclude apps so if you kill all it will keep the apps you need running like widget locker bln or avast and kill the rest. Also gives you in depth everything on yor phone
Sent from my oversized communication device.
+1 for Autostarts
Sent magically through the air from the mighty Note!
kimocal said:
+1 for Autostarts
Sent magically through the air from the mighty Note!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+2 for Autostarts.
The best by far is Gemini app manager... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.seasmind.android.gmappmgr
long press on the icon of the app to get a menu with an option to disable start up.
And the nice part it has very granular selection of start up permissions.
My background apps are killed way too often. Is it possible to change that behaviour? Even music apps are killed while I'm playing music.
I have tried several custom roms and kernels but nothing seems to change the settings. Is either able to change RAM management settings?
I have also tried several apps that claim to be able to change RAM management settings without success.
Disabling battery optimisation doesn't help.
I have uninstalled unused apps and disabled autostart (boot completed receiver) for non-essential apps to reduce RAM usage.
When I use a RAM monitor it will show RAM usage at ~75% when apps are killed.
My old phone (Note 4) only had 3 GB ram but could still keep more apps in memory.
I don't have that problem.
Have you tried Greenify or similar app to hibernate unwanted apps running in the background? They will only open then when being used and will automatically hibernate again when closed.
ChazzMatt said:
I don't have that problem.
Have you tried Greenify or similar app to hibernate unwanted apps running in the background? They will only open then when being used and will automatically hibernate again when closed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the reverse of what I'm looking for. I want the apps in the background to keep running.
Telorast said:
That's the reverse of what I'm looking for. I want the apps in the background to keep running.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then you misunderstood what I wrote. Read it again.
It's exactly what you want, because then apps you don't want running won't take up your RAM and kick off the apps that you do want running. Like your flashlight app should NOT be running the background all the time. One example. Lots of devs think their apps are most important and should always run in the background, so when you "launch" them they are there instantly.
Like I said, I don't have your issue. My apps I WANT running stay running.
If you hibernate the UN-wanted apps, that will give more freedom to apps you DO want running in the background.
There are other apps besides Greenify which may do that task even better, it's just the most well known. It shows you complete list if apps running in the background and you can choose which you WANT to run and which you want to stay killed until you choose to activate them. Those apps will be forced hibernated from then on -- until you manually activate them. When you close them, they will STAY closed and not run in the background sucking up your RAM. It also allows you to go through your entire inventory and decide yes/no. For instance, weather widget, email, yes. Benchmarking app, NO.
Worth a try. Installed Greenify and added most apps with ignore background-free.
Telorast said:
Worth a try. Installed Greenify and added most apps with ignore background-free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I even hibernate alleged background free apps, just in case.
ChazzMatt said:
Lots of devs think their apps are most important and should always run in the background, so when you "launch" them they are there instantly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
VERY TRUE!
This always infuriated me, not just on phones, PCs too, all the way back to the DOS days. An obsession with running in the background, as if it's particularly clever. :cyclops:
I've also found that turning off battery optimization for apps I don't want killed helps. I've had the same experience with music and podcast apps getting killed in the background and turning off their battery optimization usually fixes it.
There are some simple things to try that do not require any special apk's. One is to look in the apps section of the "Developer options" sub-menu. The default settings work well in most instances. Perhaps you accidently enabled closing of apps when a background limit has been reached or have ticked force closure of apps on exit.
Another place to look is in the "Power saving exclusions" sub-menu in the Battery settings. Music makes some boring forms of exercise less tiresome and provides additional motivation for activities that are challenging but fun (mountain biking). The music should not stop, but it might for default settings. Enabling a power saving exclusion for your music app will keep it running.
ChazzMatt said:
Then you misunderstood what I wrote. Read it again.
It's exactly what you want, because then apps you don't want running won't take up your RAM and kick off the apps that you do want running. Like your flashlight app should NOT be running the background all the time. One example. Lots of devs think their apps are most important and should always run in the background, so when you "launch" them they are there instantly.
Like I said, I don't have your issue. My apps I WANT running stay running.
If you hibernate the UN-wanted apps, that will give more freedom to apps you DO want running in the background.
There are other apps besides Greenify which may do that task even better, it's just the most well known. It shows you complete list if apps running in the background and you can choose which you WANT to run and which you want to stay killed until you choose to activate them. Those apps will be forced hibernated from then on -- until you manually activate them. When you close them, they will STAY closed and not run in the background sucking up your RAM. It also allows you to go through your entire inventory and decide yes/no. For instance, weather widget, email, yes. Benchmarking app, NO.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Been using Greenify for a bit now and doesn't seem to help much. It shows a bunch of hibernated apps but multitasking is still nearly impossible.
I had assumed the problem was related to the Mem Free settings rather than actual free memory but no one here has mentioned it. Is that because no one else thinks it's the problem or maybe I have misunderstood what those settings do?
I thought apps were free to use as much memory as they want until certain thresholds on total memory usage were met, then the system would ask or force apps to release memory.
Apps that let you edit those settings usually shows several thresholds where the system gets progressively more aggressive at freeing memory as memory is running out. But they all look hopelessly out of date so maybe it works completely differently today?