I know a lot of people are still running SD builds and have not jumped on the NAND wagon<since it 's still not 100% stable.
Since the OS is running off the SD card, the card transfer has to be constant right?
So, is the life span of the card drastically reduced? If so, by how much?
samson_420 said:
I know a lot of people are still running SD builds and have not jumped on the NAND wagon<since it 's still not 100% stable.
Since the OS is running off the SD card, the card transfer has to be constant right?
So, is the life span of the card drastically reduced? If so, by how much?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OOOOHHHH thats a hard one.
Check this thread and decipher what you can.
http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv016.cgi?read=92882
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx
thumbdrive (same technology - solid state memory) use for readyboost (constantly read/write as in RAM) will wear out after 10 years. that is, if you not using some "china" (not made in china -- "china") brand.
that is why they give lifetime warranty. by the time it worn out, nobody will want it if you put it on ebay.
this depends on many factors. mlc nand flash as used in all usb drives or memory cards has a limited number of erase/write cycles per cell.
typically this is about 100k now but can be as low as 10k writes
all flash has wear levelling and spare blocks the media can use to help stop cards going bad
read has no effect on wear
as phones dont spend their life writing data to the card they should last many years, but as with all tech, make sure you have a backup!
cheap unbranded cards from the far east should be avoided as they are built cheaper, will have less spare blocks and less sophisticated wear levelling
This is an interesting thread.
I use alot of apps, so even though I use NAND I have had to put data on the SD card.
After lots of corruptions and reformatting I resigned myself to getting a new SD card. Then used the Panasonic formatter to refresh the card.
However, yesterday my phone completely crashed and wouldnt make calls or run anything from the SD giving force closes etc.
Last night I flashed to MDJ Gingerbread on NAND without SD data so that my phone would work ( I guess this is the disadvantage of removing WinMo!)
So I think there is definately something in the lifespan of the SD card.
GG
Related
The title is self-explanatory, just wondering whether larger memory cards will significantly affect the battery life of the device...
Anyone's input is much appreciated.
leo-chan said:
The title is self-explanatory, just wondering whether larger memory cards will significantly affect the battery life of the device...
Anyone's input is much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am a little new to the PPC world. But technically that depends on hardware. If the memory requires a static charge to keep the information in memory then technically it would possibly drain the battery more. But from what I know MicroSD cards that I use do not require static charge to maintain memory conditions.!! -New Guy
i belive you are correct
Nope, no difference as SD cards are flash cards, only reading/writing will use the juice....
Mind you if you get a 4Gb or greater card and shove MP3s and videos on it, you WILL use it more, so the answer is yes..... YMMMV...
tedbacc said:
Nope, no difference as SD cards are flash cards, only reading/writing will use the juice....
Mind you if you get a 4Gb or greater card and shove MP3s and videos on it, you WILL use it more, so the answer is yes..... YMMMV...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So in response the conditions that will drain the battery more would be if he/she was reading/writing. or Using the card allot. Size in the SD card world shouldn't matter
It would be the amount of reading and writing and the size of the content being written and read from the card.
Hey guys i think this should be an important challenge to overcome maybe find out where all the ram is going and get it back without reseting our precious moguls. My experience its something that Task manager doesn't show up because when i end task on my DCD 3 1 2 ROM i dont get all of my memory back like right after reset. Also this causes inconvinient problem of starting GPS after few days of RAM going down to 8mb and not having enough to lunch TOMTOM.
Oxios doesn't not regain full mem only one third of it.
Can we some how make a better task manager or maybe purge RAM?
Writing a driver to consider our FLASH cards as constant RAM?
I would gladly sacrifice remove ability of my MicroSD for extra 4 gigs of ram and would let my memory leak on a period of roughly 4 years of constant usage.
Please lets get organized and stop hoping the next ROM upgrade will solve this issue.
This is one of the biggest downfalls of the mogul
I would suggest looking into how RAM works before making this thread.
First off, most of our ram appears to be lost due to memory leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak
And since, at least in my experience, most of the memory leak comes from Windows 6 (and so much worse in 6.1), you can't exactly end the windows task unless you...
restart the Mogul.
So no, an application, or task manager, wont do you any good. Not until they fix windows 6.1 up to not be lord of memory leaks. That is why new roms are often so desired, because only a rom release with some decent version of 6.1 with hopefully some patched memory leak holes could help our problem.
Second, you can't use a flash drive as ram, at least its not reasonable. You think the Mogul slows down now? Wow, just wait to you see it moving at the blistering pace of a microSD card.
Ram is so small, and so expensive, largely due to its speed. Thats why you can buy a 500GB HD for about the cost of 4GB of RAM on your computer.
Also, running from the MicroSD would be similar to the page file on your home computer. It runs from, in most cases, your C drive, its a fairly large file, getting even larger when you run multiple tasks on a low RAM system.
It is slow as a dog, and is one of the worst causes of system slowdowns. I also believe that MicroSD's have a limited number of read/writes. While not an issue so much for everyday use (taking pictures, running an app from time to time), if it were used as a swap file, it would probably wear out that SD card pretty quick.
So no, short of an amazing, simple amazing, piece of software engineering on Microsoft's part on a new Windows Mobile, someone developing some sweet, easy to install ram upgrade, or the new replacement for the Mogul coming out with more ram than we know what to do with.
You will be restarting your Mogul.
It should be possible to wright a Driver to USE RAM for swap file and some of main drivers but MicroSD card to be used to run all the extra features and programs. Also why our team of coders cant plug the memory leaks or find out the runing programs not seen by Task manager and have option to close them?
PS
Thanks for confirming my worst dream about the limits of our mogul. Also I notice that PPC on palm trios seems not to have these memory leaks.
This is maybe possible if we can build a tool that can reboot the shell without rebooting the actual OS. It can be combined with the command to free the memory when the OS is unloaded. This is my theory, i think that we can recover memory like this
VulnoX said:
I would suggest looking into how RAM works before making this thread.
First off, most of our ram appears to be lost due to memory leaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_leak
And since, at least in my experience, most of the memory leak comes from Windows 6 (and so much worse in 6.1), you can't exactly end the windows task unless you...
restart the Mogul.
So no, an application, or task manager, wont do you any good. Not until they fix windows 6.1 up to not be lord of memory leaks. That is why new roms are often so desired, because only a rom release with some decent version of 6.1 with hopefully some patched memory leak holes could help our problem.
Second, you can't use a flash drive as ram, at least its not reasonable. You think the Mogul slows down now? Wow, just wait to you see it moving at the blistering pace of a microSD card.
Ram is so small, and so expensive, largely due to its speed. Thats why you can buy a 500GB HD for about the cost of 4GB of RAM on your computer.
Also, running from the MicroSD would be similar to the page file on your home computer. It runs from, in most cases, your C drive, its a fairly large file, getting even larger when you run multiple tasks on a low RAM system.
It is slow as a dog, and is one of the worst causes of system slowdowns. I also believe that MicroSD's have a limited number of read/writes. While not an issue so much for everyday use (taking pictures, running an app from time to time), if it were used as a swap file, it would probably wear out that SD card pretty quick.
So no, short of an amazing, simple amazing, piece of software engineering on Microsoft's part on a new Windows Mobile, someone developing some sweet, easy to install ram upgrade, or the new replacement for the Mogul coming out with more ram than we know what to do with.
You will be restarting your Mogul.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
while every single statement you say is true, your only wrong about how long ti takes to wear out a flash device. According to Toshiba, the inventor of Flash memory and one of the top suppliers of Flash memory chips, the 10,000 cycles of MLC [Multi-Level Cell] NAND is more than sufficient for a wide range of consumer applications, from storing documents to digital photos. For example, if a 256-MB MLC NAND Flash-based card can typically store 250 pictures from a 4-megapixel camera (a conservative estimate), its 10,000 write/erase cycles, combined with wear-leveling algorithms in the controller, will enable the user to store and/or view approximately 2.5 million pictures within the expected useful life of the card.
For USB flash drives, Toshiba calculated that a 10,000 write cycle endurance would enable customers to completely write and erase the entire contents once per day for 27 years, well beyond the life of the hardware.
take into note that is only 10,000 write cycles. 100,000 which is common for most flash drive now a days. so no, he wont even be around to see the day his flash drive even wears out. LOL.
Glad to see this post picking up some steam But lets Try and focus on making A solution rather than discussin known facts
the known facts have already pointed out the problem (memory leaks in the OS) and the only solution we have without the source code (restart the OS by rebooting the phone) so what else is there to discuss?
oh yeah, we can talk about ways to get the source code so we can fix it.
well i posted one idea:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2257436&postcount=4
Hey i installed a custom rom, ewjet 008ex to be exact, it has an app called swapper configuration, at the moment its not active, ive never used it bfore but it seems to work very similarly to readyboost feature u find on windows. ive also heard that this can reduce the life of the SD card because the amount of read and write requests. has anybody used this feature and has it helped in anyway such as performance and memory usage, ny help would be greatful. thanks in advance
i've used it on CM roms on my G1 and it worked great.
i tried it on ewV008ex rom and i had some problems. i have an 8gb class 4 card, so that may have contributed to it, however, with 256mb swap, i would have a song skip every now and then, i had a few random reboots and bluetooth connectivity problems (not sure how that had anything to do with swap, but it started when i started swap and stopped after i removed it). and after about a day, i ended up with a damaged sd card (which ended up being a corrupt file somewhere on the SD card, a format fixed it). there was little improvement noticed, again, with a class 4 card. i really didn't test any other swap size because of how short of a time i used it. but i would assume with a class 6+ card, 128mb swap size on an ext partition on the sd card, and it would be a lot more benficial. too big will actually slow swap down, too small and it may not be adequate enough for your application.
there is no universal magical number that you can use with swap, the settings will depend on your sd card class, apps you are using, etc. typical swap settings are 64mb, 128mb, 192mb and 256mb, or atleast they were on the G1's a few years back. try a few different settings and see how it works for you.
Thanks for the reply mate, hmm in 2 minds buh i might give it a go, i have a class 10 16gb microsd card, so id have to create an ext partition i take it?
you don't have to, swapper can write the swap file to FAT
I apologize to all and sundry for being a noob, but must it seems post this here.
I have been testing GBX0C with the above phone on the 2degrees in New Zealand (GSM). I have found that the following odd behavior:
Adata 16GB class 10 & GBX0C = aprox 5 hours standby
Adata 8GB Class 6 & GBX0C = still going after 8 hours standby
Adata 16GB Class 10 & FRX07.1 = still going after 8 hours standby
To me this indicates some incompatibility between GBX0C and the 16GB SD.
Will logs be helpful to any one in this regard?
Other wise this is fully usable. Thanks to all those involved.
Battery usage is so random. Hardly anyone actually conducts a 'good' battery drain test - because usage patterns vary day to day.
Regardless, if your lower class smaller card gets better battery life - use it. Honestly the size of the card is probably meaningless, the class is more important here. I and many others have told people to stay away from higher class cards when using HaRET - there's no benefit, and you could potentially ruin the card. So why destroy a new fast card when an old slow one would probably work better?
Class measures raw speed, for sequential read writes. Operating systems use a lot of random read/writes, so you want a card that is best at that. In all my heads up tests of my cards, my 'classless' 2gb Sandisk card was the best.
arrrghhh said:
Regardless, if your lower class smaller card gets better battery life - use it. Honestly the size of the card is probably meaningless, the class is more important here. I and many others have told people to stay away from higher class cards when using HaRET - there's no benefit, and you could potentially ruin the card. So why destroy a new fast card when an old slow one would probably work better?
Class measures raw speed, for sequential read writes. Operating systems use a lot of random read/writes, so you want a card that is best at that. In all my heads up tests of my cards, my 'classless' 2gb Sandisk card was the best.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. I did read that thread, very enlightening. Just thought it was interesting that FRX07.1 did not seem to have the same problem with this particular SD.
Thanks.
kzin42 said:
Yes. I did read that thread, very enlightening. Just thought it was interesting that FRX07.1 did not seem to have the same problem with this particular SD.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Run FRX then? Not sure what you want me to tell you... You're comparing apples & oranges there as the kernels are different, and obviously userland is different as well.
There are several kernels for GBX0C. Perhaps you could try all of them, and see if one works better for you.
wizardknight said:
There are several kernels for GBX0C. Perhaps you could try all of them, and see if one works better for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, thanks I tried 3.3.8 and the same thing.
I have spent some time testing different cards, I got a 16GB sandisk class 4 (was the lowest class 16GB I could find on Trademe.co.nz) it also uses battery fast but is better than the ADATA. I have noticed some other odd behavior:
I have Identical copies of GBX0C on the 2 16gb and the 8GB SDs. I have been booting each in turn and comparing.
They each have a media folder with my custom Notifications & ringtones folders in them, at the Root of the SD. but the system will not show these on the 16GB cards, also "handsent" gives me an error when I try to set music as a notification "no music files or SD card not present" there is plenty on there.
The 8GB card has none of these issues. but it is alot slower.
I know I could just get an 8GB sandisk and it would probably help. and I know I can copy the media folder to the system folder.
I have attached logs for the 2 different sized cards they do seem very different.
kzin42 said:
I have spent some time testing different cards, I got a 16GB sandisk class 4 (was the lowest class 16GB I could find on Trademe.co.nz) it also uses battery fast but is better than the ADATA. I have noticed some other odd behavior:
I have Identical copies of GBX0C on the 2 16gb and the 8GB SDs. I have been booting each in turn and comparing.
They each have a media folder with my custom Notifications & ringtones folders in them, at the Root of the SD. but the system will not show these on the 16GB cards, also "handsent" gives me an error when I try to set music as a notification "no music files or SD card not present" there is plenty on there.
The 8GB card has none of these issues. but it is alot slower.
I know I could just get an 8GB sandisk and it would probably help. and I know I can copy the media folder to the system folder.
I have attached logs for the 2 different sized cards they do seem very different.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you formatted them to fat32? Have you formatted them with the HP tool? Can you see any data, or are you just missing the music? Do they work fine in other phones/computers?
wizardknight said:
Have you formatted them to fat32? Have you formatted them with the HP tool? Can you see any data
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, yes & yes. These were some of the first things I tried to fix it.
wizardknight said:
, or are you just missing the music?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The music can be accessed by "Folder Player", and you can see them in "Astro" it only appears to be in relation to "Handsent" so far as I can see and the "Music" app I have just noticed, lists no songs. it is very odd.
wizardknight said:
Do they work fine in other phones/computers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, very well in fact. I don't have another phone to test them with, just my PC.
Hello everyone,
I have a question about how using swap file (or partition) affects my sdcard life.
I came across this thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1659231
and there was a quote
WARNING: This mod may degrade SD card life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why is that?why using swap affects negatively on sdcard life?
I have an 8GB class 10 card,should I use swap with my x10 mini?
Does anybody know and answer me?
harris_greece said:
Hello everyone,
I have a question about how using swap file (or partition) affects my sdcard life.
I came across this thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1659231
and there was a quote
Why is that?why using swap affects negatively on sdcard life?
I have an 8GB class 10 card,should I use swap with my x10 mini?
Does anybody know and answer me?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Swap basically uses an ext-partition on your sdcard as extra RAM. Sdcards are made for occasionally(more or less) writing new data to them, whereas RAM basically gets rewritten all the time (like, deleting and recopying a file several hundred times a day). This means that the partition you use to swap will be put under much more strain than any other part of your sdcard, will "pack up" more quickly and therefor also decreases the total life of your sdcard.
Kilroy. said:
Swap basically uses an ext-partition on your sdcard as extra RAM. Sdcards are made for occasionally(more or less) writing new data to them, whereas RAM basically gets rewritten all the time (like, deleting and recopying a file several hundred times a day). This means that the partition you use to swap will be put under much more strain than any other part of your sdcard, will "pack up" more quickly and therefor also decreases the total life of your sdcard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Got it.That is exactly what I though anyway.I use swap to file but I guess the idea is the same.Thanks for the answer.
Do we have an estimate about how much is the card life affected?Like greately decreased?
harris_greece said:
Do we have an estimate about how much is the card life affected?Like greately decreased?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no, it depends on each card specific wear resistance (i killed 2 cards in 3 years )