I've been struggling with the SK17 picture quality. I've been very underwhelmed, the nr is very heavy handed and in general even under the best light conditions produces low quality pictures.
Then it dawned on me, there must be a picture fineness setting. Meaning, how much detail do you want the camera to capture. I had this thought after reviewing a number of pictures. None of them are greater than 1MB in size. A high quality jpg image will be up to 1.5MB in size.
Maybe Sony could add a fineness setting for the jpg capture?
A few other things I've found just by obervation.
Lowest ISO looks to be 64
Highest ISO 800
fastest shutter 1/1250
Note, not the easiest thing to get these values, as EV and sports mode need to be engaged.
Mike
this is the worst ever camera phone i ever had. videos are lacking in detail. we don't know if it will be rectified in the coming 2.3.4 update?
Yeah, not the best camera for non-bright conditions.
I installed an original gingerbread camera for some other Xperia device with the same sensor but modded to work for Mini Pro. And took some shots for comparison with the highest quality settings (Super Fine) on the original one. File sizes were about 30% larger but with no very little to no differences so i stuck with the Sony's one.
They're coming up with some camera tweaks for new update so maybe they'll manage to improve this aspect although i doubt it.
sulkie said:
Yeah, not the best camera for non-bright conditions.
I installed an original gingerbread camera for some other Xperia device with the same sensor but modded to work for Mini Pro. And took some shots for comparison with the highest quality settings (Super Fine) on the original one. File sizes were about 30% larger but with no very little to no differences so i stuck with the Sony's one.
They're coming up with some camera tweaks for new update so maybe they'll manage to improve this aspect although i doubt it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope they can come up with some improvements. Hopefully software can get better quality. The picture quality is even poor with very good lighting.
Something to note, the lens is rather small, I compared it to the C905a Exif data. the C905a is outfitted with a 6mm lens, the one in the Minipro is 4mm. That's a 33% difference in size!
I don't know the size of the W580i lens, it didn't come out in the EXIF data.
Mike
Maybe im not a demanding camera user but daylight photos look good enough for me, although they probably can be improved via software.
Only thing that i'd like to see improved is low light photos but i dont think software can help much there. Its much more dependant on sensor size.
We'll see.
sulkie said:
Maybe im not a demanding camera user but daylight photos look good enough for me, although they probably can be improved via software.
Only thing that i'd like to see improved is low light photos but i dont think software can help much there. Its much more dependant on sensor size.
We'll see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're right, at the end of the day it's the sensor size/quality.
I'm assuming the camera is doing a lot of internal processing. NR as well as compression. Hopefully, they can do something about reducing both.
As you say, if the sensor isn't up to the task, it won't matter.
Mike
panamamike said:
You're right, at the end of the day it's the sensor size/quality.
I'm assuming the camera is doing a lot of internal processing. NR as well as compression. Hopefully, they can do something about reducing both.
As you say, if the sensor isn't up to the task, it won't matter.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its a crap cam.
Arc got a way better cam, but its a cost/marketing issue... see? They want to niche ray,mini,neo,arc,play
And this shows on the pricetag/targeting ads..
Basic marketing.
r33p said:
Its a crap cam.
Arc got a way better cam, but its a cost/marketing issue... see? They want to niche ray,mini,neo,arc,play
And this shows on the pricetag/targeting ads..
Basic marketing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well its the smallest and cheapest of them all so corners had to be cut somewhere.
Theres also the segmentation of products that you mentioned but every single manufacturer does it.
We all wish it was a bit better but its not 'crap'. And daylight pictures are decent.
Edit: Check out this comparison. Load up mini pro and arc and you'll see that Arc isnt actually that much better even though its 8mpix and device itself is highend-ish. Also load up Galaxy Ace which has 5mpix, it blows mini pro and arc out of the water. Same goes for xperia neo. 2011 Xperia phones have had sup bar cameras it seems. They all have the same imperfections, not much differences between them. http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=3&idPhone1=3713&idPhone2=3724&idPhone3=3619
sulkie said:
Well its the smallest and cheapest of them all so corners had to be cut somewhere.
Theres also the segmentation of products that you mentioned but every single manufacturer does it.
We all wish it was a bit better but its not 'crap'. And daylight pictures are decent.
Edit: Check out this comparison. Load up mini pro and arc and you'll see that Arc isnt actually that much better even though its 8mpix and device itself is highend-ish. Also load up Galaxy Ace which has 5mpix, it blows mini pro and arc out of the water. Same goes for xperia neo. 2011 Xperia phones have had sup bar cameras it seems. They all have the same imperfections, not much differences between them. http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=3&idPhone1=3713&idPhone2=3724&idPhone3=3619
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice find! Looks like there are 2 main issues that make me unhappy with the PQ.
1: Is the noise reduction pattern, it looks to have a blotch pattern to me. It's not a pleasant constant grain like the iPhone 4.
2: Dynamic range looks pretty poor.
I think both of these could be due to the NR and compression algo. It would be nice if Sony would provide something better, or if it could be fixed via software.
It's a shame the test chart didn't provide better real world fine detail examples. I like to look at hair for this type of test and apparently that sample photo of the girls isn't helpful since the DSLR cameras didn't show good detail in that area.
However, it does give a feel for just how good of a job the camera can do.
Mike
panamamike said:
Nice find! Looks like there are 2 main issues that make me unhappy with the PQ.
1: Is the noise reduction pattern, it looks to have a blotch pattern to me. It's not a pleasant constant grain like the iPhone 4.
2: Dynamic range looks pretty poor.
I think both of these could be due to the NR and compression algo. It would be nice if Sony would provide something better, or if it could be fixed via software.
It's a shame the test chart didn't provide better real world fine detail examples. I like to look at hair for this type of test and apparently that sample photo of the girls isn't helpful since the DSLR cameras didn't show good detail in that area.
However, it does give a feel for just how good of a job the camera can do.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its a midrange/entry level phone ffs. Dont compare it with iphone4.
Its not on the same planet.
And a compression algo is indeed controlled via software. Same with nr. Stuff that SE finetunes with firmware updates.
Now, enjoy what you get for the money or buy the Arc S.
r33p said:
Its a midrange/entry level phone ffs. Dont compare it with iphone4.
Its not on the same planet.
And a compression algo is indeed controlled via software. Same with nr. Stuff that SE finetunes with firmware updates.
Now, enjoy what you get for the money or buy the Arc S.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, the iphone4 comparison isn't appropriate, but I started the thread because I was surprise that my old SE W580i produced better photos, take resolution into account. It also has a setting for normal vs. fine level detail, I was surprised to find the Mini Pro doesn't have that option.
I think the mini pro has room for improvement...
Mike
Well i had a couple of androids. Non wich where perfect.
r33p said:
Well i had a couple of androids. Non wich where perfect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, all phones have their short comings, I just don't like it when a phone is gimped, meaning the hardware is able, but the software lack of features or bugs get in the way...
Mike
sulkie said:
Yeah, not the best camera for non-bright conditions.
I installed an original gingerbread camera for some other Xperia device with the same sensor but modded to work for Mini Pro. And took some shots for comparison with the highest quality settings (Super Fine) on the original one. File sizes were about 30% larger but with no very little to no differences so i stuck with the Sony's one.
They're coming up with some camera tweaks for new update so maybe they'll manage to improve this aspect although i doubt it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried some of the 3rd party cameras, 360 camera and lgcamera. Similar results, not noticeable PQ improvement and much larger files 3x in some cases.
Yet I'm not convinced these programs have full control of the camera. Wondering how the sensor RAW image is processed by the camera to produce a jpeg ect...
BTW, how did you determine which sensor is in the camera?
Mike
I find the quality to be very good. It's a digital camera afterall, dont expect magic on a 200€ device.
If u guys take still pic's in daylight , then HDR cam+ takes some awesome shots
here's a sample u can judge.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/20111014131928.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/20111014125355.jpg/
when i takce a picture with my camera on xperia mini pro, as a result the photos are really small when i see them on my pc, how can I change the size of the picture??
Try to use lgcamera...more options, you´ll find it in the market
To be honest i have a pretty good experience with my Active's camera. I had it mounted on my ski boot, and inside the strap (which adds another layer of plastic, making it a bit more blurry). I must say i was impressed.
Related
I've been taking some test shots with the mini pro camera, and I have to say I'm a bit let down.
Turns out the camera is a bit slower than I initially thought, and the pictures come out to be a pixelly mess.
I thought the dithering artifacts where only due to low light scenes, but it turns out I can see there artifacts with well let subjects.
The still frame camera does better than the video, but both suffer. Maybe Sony could do us a favor and have an option to remove in camera noise reduction. This would give us a chance to do better noise reduction in post to try and produce better quality results.
The video also suffers from cadence issues when outdoor light is very bright. I've seen this in dedicate video on stills cameras, it results in choppy video. I'd rather have smoother better quality low resolution video as compared to this dithered choppy mess of video.
Most of these artifacts are masked if you view video on the camera itself, but when you view them on your HDTV they are quite obvious.
Anyone have ideas on turning off the NR, I'd be happy to hear them.
Things you can do to help performance.
Set camera to fixed or infinity focus for faster response.
Use the sports mode for higher ISO shots, faster pics.
Use center weighted focusing.
Another interesting thing to note, I also happen to have the X10 mini pro. Looking at the phones side by side, the x10 has a slightly larger lens. I was a bit surprised at this change. I hope Sony makes an effort to bring better quality photo and video to the smart phones. Heck, they can make it their market differentiator.
Mike
hardware or software?
is it hardware problem or software? can video recording be improved through software upgrade?
irumbustalin said:
is it hardware problem or software? can video recording be improved through software upgrade?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Possibly.
But you also have to realise that this is just a mobile phone, of course it isn't going to be as good as dedicated hardware.
irumbustalin said:
is it hardware problem or software? can video recording be improved through software upgrade?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can't say if software is an issue, but I'm certain hardware is an issue.
1 thing they could do from a software POV is to have an option to remove noise reduction. Sony may be not want people to see what the photos look like without NR.
2: It's a physics thing, the lens is tiny and the sensor is even smaller. The sensor technology is another issue. The sensor can only collect so much light, this directly impacts it's a ability to produce better photos. Note that Sony has a higher quality sensor Exmor they decide to reserve for other cameras.
I was hoping the phone could produce video quality to rival something like a flip phone.
3: Keeping the lens clean. It's hard to do this with a phone you constantly hold in your hand without some sort of lens shield. My old W580i hid the lens when it was in the close position. It also had a nice smooth easy to clean lens surface. It was only 2MP, but took excellent photos.
There are a few more things I could play with in my quest for better photos. For one, I should make sure the image stabilizer isn't on when I take well lit photo samples.
One other interesting thing I noted is the maximum shutter speed I've been able to produce. The camera may max out at 1/125 sec. I was a bit surprised, that's kind of slow. I haven't gone to see what my other camera phone can do, but that in itself shows the weakness of the phone.
Several of the shots I took under what I would call bright/normal lighting produced 1/16th shutter speed. This makes it hard to get a blur free photo due to subject movement and camera shake.
I was able to compensate some using sports mode, but that increases the ISO which = more noisy photos.
Mike
Comparison to x10 mini pro
Just had the opportunity to take a look at a few photos my wife has taken with the x10 mini pro. Actually, based on the experience with this phone, I decided to wait for and buy the mini pro 2.
I was happy and at the same time sad to see how much better photos taken with the x10 mini appeared vs. the mini pro 2.
The colors, focus, as well as resolution was better. Also noted that the photo size was larger, near the 1.5M size I expected out of the mini pro 2 photos.
Also noticed the x10 mini is capable of ISO 40.
I compared the panorama type shot, the X10 fared better, but still not great in panorama detail, I guess that's o.k.
Also noticed the x10 camera options are significantly fewer than those on the mini pro 2. That's fine since the photos are of decent quality though it would be nice to have a bit more control over the photo options.
I'm certain Sony could at least do something about the photo compression being used in the Mini Pro 2, it would be nice if the camera could at least equal the x10 mini pro photo capability.
Mike
Quite strange that they declared the Xperia S to be the worst performer in the group and said:
But, it does look like the 12.1MP Sony Xperia S is the least impressive of the four devices, even with its megapixel superiority. The poorer quality can possibly be attributed to its lower cost and hence, cheaper hardware
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.androidauthority.com/xperia-s-vs-iphone-4s-vs-s3-vs-one-x-camera-fight-90384/
Watch out for even more "fanboy" reviews to popup.
I have seen this article yesterday, I dont know what's going on but. I had chance to play with IPhone 4g and HTC ONE X cameras and I have to say that my SONY XPERIA S is the winner. Whoever made this macro picture with bananas for XPS _ completely f **** it. For me this looks like an anti -Sony competition ...
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
Hmm...
I always take these photo reviews with a grain of salt. It is really the reviewers who make/break these sort of reviews.
He doesn't say whether he uses Auto-Mode, or anything like that. With standard settings I feel you aren't even capable of reviewing a camera properly...they leave it all up to the auto-mode to decide what settings to use.
Oh well, I know my Xperia S takes amazing pictures in comparison to most of those devices, that's all that matters to me, regardless of the random negative reviews here and there .
True. I am surprised to see such horrible photos taken with the Xperia S. XS can do much better than what the author managed. Pretty sure he used auto mode and didn't let the phone focus properly. Or maybe messed up the settings to make it seem worse.
well
XS camera is great and compare to my previous SGS 2, XS has fast focus and fast shutter speed.. even the color is better
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/118344624379023636652/albums/5747354225338739793
Have you already tried any photos with low light.. they are pretty noisy i think the flash its not very good .. i mean my satio did better
tel033 said:
Have you already tried any photos with low light.. they are pretty noisy i think the flash its not very good .. i mean my satio did better
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That seems to be a software problem
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
shmoejoe said:
Hmm...
I always take these photo reviews with a grain of salt. It is really the reviewers who make/break these sort of reviews.
He doesn't say whether he uses Auto-Mode, or anything like that. With standard settings I feel you aren't even capable of reviewing a camera properly...they leave it all up to the auto-mode to decide what settings to use.
Oh well, I know my Xperia S takes amazing pictures in comparison to most of those devices, that's all that matters to me, regardless of the random negative reviews here and there .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
fully agree there is full of fanboys with no respect for the tecnology look at this video for example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A33-6M-XChs&feature=related
Sent from my LT26i using xda premium
Bad review I must say. I wonder if companies are paying reviewers to bash another company's product and make them less appealing. I find the iPhone 4S pics quite colour accurate but the Xperia S has much more detail and gives me perfect pictures. I seem to use my dSLR less since I got the S. I don't like HTC One X's camera. Just not as good. One reason I didn't consider it. Though I am not sure about S3. If it's close to S2's camera unit, I can crown my Xperia S as the winner
Sent from my wonderful Xperia S
waiflih said:
That seems to be a software problem
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Any tip or solution?
a4rocks said:
Bad review I must say. I wonder if companies are paying reviewers to bash another company's product and make them less appealing. I find the iPhone 4S pics quite colour accurate but the Xperia S has much more detail and gives me perfect pictures. I seem to use my dSLR less since I got the S. I don't like HTC One X's camera. Just not as good. One reason I didn't consider it. Though I am not sure about S3. If it's close to S2's camera unit, I can crown my Xperia S as the winner
Sent from my wonderful Xperia S
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you upload some pics in low light please I'm having problems in normal conditions camera is great although sometimes a bit of noise but in low light AF problem but the worst is noise
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
tel033 said:
Any tip or solution?
Can you upload some pics in low light please I'm having problems in normal conditions camera is great although sometimes a bit of noise but in low light AF problem but the worst is noise
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The noise is caused by the small (better say tiny) light sensor on the phone. Sony makes the best sensor. I don't think any other phone uses better sensor than XS.
Photos from some phones "looks" better because they apply a stronger software noise reduction than SX does or they have a bigger apperture (e.g. HTC One X has F2.0 compare to F2.4 in XS). My solution to this is to apply noise reduction after I've loaded the photos to my PC using Lightroom.
Any way to applied it in the phone not in pc? Better is there a software to reduce the noise before shooting? You said that it's sensor was good but tiny right? So is it hardware problem ? Or software? Or both?
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
Wow!
Hold on!
Just one picture and tooken with auto mode and this whole review...?
What the hell is this. This doesnt even makes sense...
This is more like:
Hey buddy im bored, let pick up some phones and take pictures and put it on internet.
So "we" can read it and discuss it so they can laugh their ass of...
In another threats .. With no "auto" mode they made few compares...
Different stages, scenes etc...
The xs came the best out.. It just beat all of them..
4s to s2(whens3 was not out)
Every high end smart phone.. But doesnt mind..
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
^
Can you post link to the comparo where XS beat them all ?
The original review work comes from the mobile reviewer at cnet. Having read her reviews in the past she is very apple biased and seems unable to operate phones correctly.
In her original review of the xperia s (put up against iphone 4) she complained about the xs' camera taking 'letterbox' photos and that she prefered the iphones 4/3 images. If she'd of bothered to hit the menu button when using the camera she'd of found it was set to 9mp 16/9 and that a couple of clicks would of then set it to 12mp 4/3.
So dont expect her to have used anything but full auto mode.
The manual options in the xs' camera are great with things like target iso, and multi point auto focus.
If only they'd bothered to include the jpeg compression options as the default level dratically over compresses images and introduces artifacts.
Also on her low light test (and most of the tests tbh) ... the iphones colours look artificially over saturated (post process) the noise level on the iphone is also horrific yet she complains at the rest!
It's also funny to see her complaining about the iso effect, its probably because the xs and gs3 can change there iso and the rest cant! Try having some movement in the image and then see how well the iphone copes.
What is also funny is that the images have all been resized for web display, having 50% more pixels to start with gives you more options for post processing and thus noise reduction
So if we could adjust the jpeg compression the noise would be reduce right?
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
nit said:
The noise is caused by the small (better say tiny) light sensor on the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's not strictly true, the noise comes from the software raising ISO in low light, all sensors from the tiny ones in a phone to a full frame 35mm one will suffer from noise as the ISO is raised. Its just that the bigger the sensor the higher the ISO needs to before it to become a problem.
If noise is a problem then just use Neat Image, nothing comes close to it http://www.neatimage.com/
The noise in this camera is not particularly bad, tbh in low light every digital camera will have noise because of the use of higher ISO. I think the 12mp sensor also make the noise more visible...I'm not sure about the technical details though...
Sent from my LT26i using XDA
The basic gist of iso levels is as follows.
For a given amount of light hitting the sensor (metered) an exposure duration is determined.
Increasing the iso level decreases the exposure time for the same amount of light.
A shorter exposure time reduces the signal to noise ratio significantly, but it also reduces motion blur. Noise can be post processed, blur not so much.
My old nokia n95 would have exposure times of over 2 seconds in low light conditions, chance that everything remained totally motionless in this time is very small!
The exposure duration is usually stored in the exif file, I hope her original files kept all this sort of info!
The xs' camera has potential because we can change the target iso value (though compared to a still camera they're still low) we can also change the metering method as well. I haven't seen either of these features before in a phone camera.
The only thing we are missing is the ability manually specifiy exposure duration.
You are also correct in that the higher pixel density of a sensor the higher probabiltiy of noise.
Ability to take raw photo's or 100% quality jpegs would be nice (people have done mods to enable 100% jpeg quality, but I cant root my phone at present to test it as i use sky go)
Edit - Just checked the exif info on the 'original full size' images and its been wiped file sizes are interesting though.
GS3 - 2.1mb, IP4 - 2.6mb, 1X - 1.5mb, XS - 2.0mb
Have just noticed all the 1x pics are 6 megapixel images in 16:9 format which seems suspicious to me. But it says it all for the XS when it has a smaller file size than the GS3 and IP4 yet 50% more pixels.
Rough rule of thumb is that you need at least 1/2mb per megapixel to avoid any degradation on a full image (ie no patches of black or white)
So I was going to test my Smartwatch ZGPAX S5 vs an old Fuji Finepix 2650 (2MP) and decided to just test the Xperia Z as well and use the NEX-6 as the control image if you will.
Nothing scientific..just me wasting some time for a quick experiment!
The images have been named to identify the device and which APP was used to take the image as well.
This is under a normal room lightning condition as going into even lower light levels I do not expect miracles from any of them aside from the NEX.
I did a quicker test before taking a pic of a violin on a wall and on that test the Xperia really looked bad so I would have to do that again to confirm if that is the case. In fact, it looked so bad that I was expecting it to be one of the worst during this Cobra Commander test but it was not. I think the A Better Camera did the best job for the Xperia although closely followed by Camera Zoom.
Regards
PS Just in case, after you click on the small preview to open the new window, you can click on it again for the full size image if you want to compare all the detail.
I am not camera veteran / expert
Can you make conclusion to average user ?
Thanks
That's kind of an unfair test. The NEX (which I own and love) is a DSL class camera for semipros. The rest including the ZU (which I own and love too) is kiddie stuff in comparison. I mean, the Finepix is from 2003
dancress said:
That's kind of an unfair test. The NEX (which I own and love) is a DSL class camera for semipros. The rest including the ZU (which I own and love too) is kiddie stuff in comparison. I mean, the Finepix is from 2003
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hahah the NEX-6 was more of the Control image to see which one got closer to it
I would say if you want to improve the low light performance of the Ultra slightly from the horrible compression of the stock camera, either go with A Better Camera or ProCapture. Pro Capture has a noise reduction option which takes a couple of images and processes them, and there is something similar on A Better Camera as well.
Or get a NEX camera if you really are serious about your photos :victory:
i wasn't too serious either but getting a NEX is good advice anyway. best camera i ever had, including several large canons. you won't shoot a vogue cover with it but for everything else there's IMHO no better price-performance-ratio.
Oh yes, the NEX lineup is outstanding. I have seen some pros mixing their PRO camera pics with the NEX and you cant really tell which is which ...quite impressive!
BTW, I just tested a HTC Amaze with the 8MP camera which when it came out seem to have been received positively and dare I say the Ultra actually looks better!
Testing without the flash benefit of course which is sort of cheating I guess lol
UPDATE:
Just added the HTC Amaze also an 8MP camera.
Just a small update.
Added another pic with stock camera but ISO 50 and I will say, it looks pretty good to me. In fact, when its possible to use that type of ISO without blurring the image, I would go for the stock camera.
Hi all,
What's up with the z2 primary cam? I've got a nexus 5, an lg g2, a galaxy s3 here at home aside from the z2. The camera pics seem to be comparable to the nexus 5 or g2? I was expecting a lot better being all the branding and the megapixels at its disposal... The images seem to be drawn on sandpaper( grainy on zooming) I don't get why... being the hardware is present am I the only one with this issue or is this a software thing that needs to be fixed? Any cam mods that solve this? Cybershot mod or the xposed mod?
Thanks a ton in advance, I'm worried I'm the only one with the grainy images...
mokaigutti said:
Hi all,
What's up with the z2 primary cam? I've got a nexus 5, an lg g2, a galaxy s3 here at home aside from the z2. The camera pics seem to be comparable to the nexus 5 or g2? I was expecting a lot better being all the branding and the megapixels at its disposal... The images seem to be drawn on sandpaper( grainy on zooming) I don't get why... being the hardware is present am I the only one with this issue or is this a software thing that needs to be fixed? Any cam mods that solve this? Cybershot mod or the xposed mod?
Thanks a ton in advance, I'm worried I'm the only one with the grainy images...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was similarly surprised when looking at the photos that I take with my Z2... However, I think it's understandable. In Superior Auto mode, the resolution is only 8MP, so that could be why your images are looking similar to that of the N5 and G2... If you switch to manual mode and up the resolution to the full 20MP, the pictures are quite clearly much higher quality. You can zoom in after taking the photo and not lose much if any clarity. As for the graininess, you have to remember that they're fitting 20700000 pixels into an area of about 1cm^2, so they're going to be tiny pixels. This means not much light will reach them. Hence why HTC have gone for a 4MP main camera, but with much bigger, more light absorbing pixels to focus on getting the minimal amount of grain, whilst sacrificing some resolution (on the M8). So in short, there's nothing wrong with the camera, the reason it's grainy is because it's ultra sensitive to low light conditions. To get amazing high resolution images with the Z2, you'll need a well lit, well balanced environment. It's a good camera, but it is designed for great photos, and that means perfect environments are required. If you leave it on Superior Auto, it will take photos that are just fine and hold up to scrutiny against those of the Nexus 5 and LG G2, they just can't hold up to all the branding and advertising that Sony have been giving, since you are unlikely to get the perfect picture taking environment in every day usage. I suggest putting the camera on Manual mode and fiddling with the in depth settings when lining up a shot. Don't push it all the way up to 20MP as you lose the ability to do HDR or Stabilisation, but at 15MP with the correct exposure and ISO settings, the photos can look incredible.
Hope that cleared things up, and sorry if it answered none of your questions x'D
Most of the time superior auto produces just as good quality as 20mp manual, and no its an insult to compare camera to g2 or nexus5, its way better
Agree with what u said but the superior auto I find takes better snaps than the max resolution in most cases. And the reason why I'm disappointed is that it is indeed comparable to the other two, which indeed is an insult!
So everybody gets the grainy images on zooming then? And is this fixable via a firmware or software update?
Put up some originals so we can see what you mean.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5whd6h9620kemdu/DSC_0036.JPG untouched pic here... Is this the best I can get? ( I have 3 more similar shots, this is the best one of the bunch)
feis said:
Most of the time superior auto produces just as good quality as 20mp manual, and no its an insult to compare camera to g2 or nexus5, its way better
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The G2 with the camera mod available to it produced incredible photos and when I got my z2 I didn't really notice a difference other than the extreme amount of postprocessing that sometimes makes photos look like absolute crap... I just wished there was a way to remove all the processing of the image so we can tweak it ourselves
mokaigutti said:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5whd6h9620kemdu/DSC_0036.JPG untouched pic here... Is this the best I can get? ( I have 3 more similar shots, this is the best one of the bunch)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can try to get slightly better with manual and iso 50, yours was iso 84 but the difference will only show up in zooming.
If you're not zooming in a 3.5MP photo will be sharper still.
---------- Post added at 04:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 AM ----------
mokaigutti said:
I've got a nexus 5, an lg g2, a galaxy s3 here at home aside from the z2. The camera pics seem to be comparable to the nexus 5 or g2? I was expecting a lot better being all the branding and the megapixels at its disposal...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have a similar photo from those cameras. It's best to take a shot of a similar subject, same angle and lighting conditions and let's see what you are comparing with.
s3 & n5 are 8mp so are comparable. The g2 makes 13MP so you should reduce it to the same resolution as what you are comparing with.
mokaigutti said:
The images seem to be drawn on sandpaper( grainy on zooming) I don't get why... being the hardware is present am I the only one with this issue or is this a software thing that needs to be fixed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't see a lot of grain in this picture with iso 84, zoomed in at 100%. Grain starts at 400-800 and beyond.
When the light goes down the others will struggle to keep up. They won't match video of z2 with the s3 coming the closest but stabilisation on the z2 will beat it. Z2 is a general purpose camera.
But those cameras have f2.4 or a half stop smaller apertures so this means more of the background will be in focus behind where you focus with the z2. This is the tradeoff for better bokeh and low light in video. But it only applies if you focus on a subject that is close.
mokaigutti said:
Thanks a ton in advance, I'm worried I'm the only one with the grainy images...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you put up a 20MP photo, try to take it with the on screen button instead of camera button as this reduces camera shake. Let's see how good your lens is.
xperia z1 ad z2 have poor processing algorithms. since the release of xperia z1 sony improved the image quality, but still needs improvements.
the grain in the pictures is NOT because of the tiny pixels, the xperia z2 has 1.175u pixels, larger than the 1.12u pixels in galaxy s5 and s4 for example, and both of them doesnt suffer from that level of grain and noise. if you take into consideration that sony has a bigger pixel, bigger sensor and resolution, wider aperture lens (can capture more light) than any other android smartphone and produces pictures comparable with an iphone 5 or gs4 with 1/3.2 sensor and f2.2 camera its a big shame for sony.
at 20mp you will have even more noise and grain. when shooting at 8Mp, the phone downsample the image utilizing the better pixels to provide a better picture (similar to what nokia does with its pureview lumia 1020 41Mp camera). shooting in manual mode is better for properly adjusting exposure, white balance and ISO, but the processing itself is the same, so apart from those parameters, nothing else will change
you can see the advantages of the big sensor and wide aperture lens in very low light videos for example. it produces much brighter and lower noise videos than others competitors, but the imaging from sony is terribly inconsistent. there is grain, noise and alias everywhere and and blur smeared inconsistently in pictures. and you can easily notice it in any picture taken with z1/z1c/z2. videos also suffers with lots of aliasing
with android L and the new and much improved camera API, lets hope from better camera firmwares from sony, and with DNG support, at least 3rd party camera apps will support it. then maybe we will have good quality pictures without the terrible post processing from sony
I guess the post processing is the problem. If I flash aosp or aokp the Google camera will use the stock processing right? And not sony's? Will that be better?
I'll try with the manual mode enabled and play with the iso as suggested as well.
And the 21mp are marginally worse than the superior auto so there isn't a point in uploading that... Ill upload pics from the 3 phones with a similar subject as suggested by today or tomorrow at the latest!
Thanks a ton for the feedback guys!
pepeo123 said:
xperia z1 ad z2 have poor processing algorithms. since the release of xperia z1 sony improved the image quality, but still needs improvements.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
File sizes of z2 are larger than z1 so there is less processing in z2. The numerous complaints i saw with z1 picture quality are very few with z2 largely because auto in z2 does a better job. What does auto do better in z2 ? the same thing people did in manual with z1, use the lowest iso possible.
pepeo123 said:
but the imaging from sony is terribly inconsistent. there is grain, noise and alias everywhere and and blur smeared inconsistently in pictures.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you want consistent then you have to go with manual. No two ways about it.
Then you need to have a pretty good idea of how the sensor works in varying light conditions. You need to take loads of pictures to better understand which settings give the best picture depending on light. This is the same with any camera for that matter, assuming these others even allow some sort of manual intervention to begin with. With the g3 or moto x there is nothing, iphone is only marginally better in allowing exposure setting.
Don't want to do that ? then you will be taking 2 or 3 shots to get it right.
pepeo123 said:
if you take into consideration that sony has a bigger pixel, bigger sensor and resolution, wider aperture lens (can capture more light) than any other android smartphone and produces pictures comparable with an iphone 5 or gs4 with 1/3.2 sensor and f2.2 camera its a big shame for sony.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try comparing a 20MP pic with the smaller resolutions of the others and see how much more you can zoom. There may be more artifiacts in some situations but details will be better preserved. An 8mp iphone 5 cannot have the same details as a 20MP from the z2. In the same way as 13MP from the g2/s4 or 16MP from the s5 will have more detail than a 8mp auto from z2.
---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
mokaigutti said:
I guess the post processing is the problem. If I flash aosp or aokp the Google camera will use the stock processing right? And not sony's? Will that be better?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doubtful. Or put it this way. i've yet to see someone make this claim in the z2 photo thread. For the simple reason that 3rd party apps cannot access iso setting in the camera libs. best camera app you can use is stock. The xposed mod allows to take auto in 20mp instead of 8mp. This i've seen to actually work. if you need it.
Whatever complaints people have about processing its better in the z2 than it is in the z1 when it came out. The only time i've seen the z1 do better is when there were lens issues with the reviewer's z2.
mokaigutti said:
And the 21mp are marginally worse than the superior auto so there isn't a point in uploading that...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to check if the lens is ok. I've seen samples where 20MP are not as sharp with some models as others. See the pictures from this post.. Or even from an earlier post here.
Download the pictures from both posts and do a 1:1 compare, there is a subtle but noticeable difference between the two. This is a hardware defect and causes a softer than otherwise photo. You only see it in 20mp, 8mp will mask it.
What is the manufacturing date of your model ? should be in the format 14wxy, you will find it printed on a sticker under the micro-sd tray.
mokaigutti said:
Ill upload pics from the 3 phones with a similar subject as suggested by today or tomorrow at the latest!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah let's see the difference.
bear in mind that doing this sort of comparison on a sample size of a few pictures is tricky at best. Yes, in some instances some photos may be better, but what does it mean. You'd have to take many photos to draw a conclusion that this or that model is better than another, that too only in certain situations. Koreans tend to do more sharpening in their photos & videos which is perceived by some to be better. Debatable.
One Twelve said:
File sizes of z2 are larger than z1 so there is less processing in z2. The numerous complaints i saw with z1 picture quality are very few with z2 largely because auto in z2 does a better job. What does auto do better in z2 ? the same thing people did in manual with z1, use the lowest iso possible.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes the z2 pics are indeed larger (some are actualy 2x larger) probably mostly because lower compression. there is also processing changes too like you said, but both of them still badly processed. http://blog.gsmarena.com/sony-xperia-z2-vs-z1-camera-comparison/
One Twelve said:
If you want consistent then you have to go with manual. No two ways about it.
Then you need to have a pretty good idea of how the sensor works in varying light conditions. You need to take loads of pictures to better understand which settings give the best picture depending on light. This is the same with any camera for that matter, assuming these others even allow some sort of manual intervention to begin with. With the g3 or moto x there is nothing, iphone is only marginally better in allowing exposure setting.
Don't want to do that ? then you will be taking 2 or 3 shots to get it right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
when i mean inconsistent, i dont mean that the camera is inconsistent trough various pictures(wich is, in superior auto, like you said, but can be solved shooting in manual adjusting correctly the parameters if you have enough knowledge in the equipment you are using, like you said too), i mean inconsistency in the picture itself. the picture is not uniform, it has random blured areas like if the lens was astigmatic or myopic giving the impression of a defocuesed image in some random areas (im not talking about the defective lens gsmarena unit)
http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=3&idPhone1=4238&idPhone3=6144&idCamera2=30013
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/ca...ng-Galaxy-S5,LG-G3/phones/8323,8202,8347?st=2
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/camera/Sony-Xperia-Z2,Samsung-Galaxy-S5,LG-G3/phones/8323,8202,8347
One Twelve said:
Try comparing a 20MP pic with the smaller resolutions of the others and see how much more you can zoom. There may be more artifiacts in some situations but details will be better preserved. An 8mp iphone 5 cannot have the same details as a 20MP from the z2. In the same way as 13MP from the g2/s4 or 16MP from the s5 will have more detail than a 8mp auto from z2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes at 20mp you will have much more deatil thanks to the much larger resolution, but when i mean it was a big shame, i mean that at 8mp, the xperia z2 has comparable if not worse pictures in some cases than iphone 5 or lg g3, gs5, etc even with all those hardware advantages of it. and this is again caused by the processing. lots of grain, noise, alias, blur, too high contrast, etc, etc, etc (yes noise can be reduced using lower iso in manual, but when i mean more noise, i mean more noise in the same iso settings as the competitors)
an interesting thing to note is that if you compare raw pictures of the nokia 1020 with the jpeg ones from it for example, there is a HUGE diference between them, and nokia is know from doing really good processing in cameras in general. so this makes me think how much extra performance can be achieved from the z seris with it great hardware
I'm just worried this could be a hardware issue, mine is a 14W21 phone. I'm gonna do some extensive photo sessions and if they don't work out maybe try a replacement
pepeo123 said:
yes the z2 pics are indeed larger (some are actualy 2x larger) probably mostly because lower compression. there is also processing changes too like you said, but both of them still badly processed. http://blog.gsmarena.com/sony-xperia-z2-vs-z1-camera-comparison/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok, i checked the 20MP manual mode shots at 100% and can say the z2 shot is visibly better than the z1 if you look at the balcony railings left of centre and building detail right of centre.
gsmarenas z2's lens does not have any issues that i can notice. I don't know if the z1 lens is ok though.
pepeo123 said:
when i mean inconsistent, i dont mean that the camera is inconsistent trough various pictures(wich is, in superior auto, like you said, but can be solved shooting in manual adjusting correctly the parameters if you have enough knowledge in the equipment you are using, like you said too), i mean inconsistency in the picture itself. the picture is not uniform, it has random blured areas like if the lens was astigmatic or myopic giving the impression of a defocuesed image in some random areas (im not talking about the defective lens gsmarena unit)
http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=3&idPhone1=4238&idPhone3=6144&idCamera2=30013
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/ca...ng-Galaxy-S5,LG-G3/phones/8323,8202,8347?st=2
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/camera/Sony-Xperia-Z2,Samsung-Galaxy-S5,LG-G3/phones/8323,8202,8347
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, i see the underlined bit at 20MP with the z2 , but check out the SA of the iso chart from gsmareana (phonearena did not have SA images to compare)
http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=1&idPhone1=6033&idPhone3=6144&idCamera2=30013
Much clearer to see the chart in SA than 20MP isn't it. Note that you see same blur with 20MP here too.
I added z1 into comparison in phonearena's chart, can you see the difference between z1 & z2.
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/ca...ony-Xperia-Z1/phones/8323,8202,8347,8000?st=2
z1 is less blurred but the compression is much more than z2. If you try to reduce the size of the image in phonearena, the z2 image remains blurred but if you look at the SA, its much more clear as shown in gsmarena.
pepeo123 said:
yes at 20mp you will have much more deatil thanks to the much larger resolution, but when i mean it was a big shame, i mean that at 8mp, the xperia z2 has comparable if not worse pictures in some cases than iphone 5 or lg g3, gs5, etc even with all those hardware advantages of it. and this is again caused by the processing. lots of grain, noise, alias, blur, too high contrast, etc, etc, etc (yes noise can be reduced using lower iso in manual, but when i mean more noise, i mean more noise in the same iso settings as the competitors)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Underlined bit is somewhat true in good light, but not in low light.
Why the pictures look better, requires explanation of what better means. Did you see DxO's tests. compare z1, 5s, s5 & z2 on 7 parameters for still photo. Exposure, ontrast & Noise is very well controlled in the Z2. Artifacts is the only parameter where the Z2 trails the others. To notice that you will have to zoom into edges to see it. Not very apparent without zooming.
Exposure and contrast
---------------------
90 Apple iPhone 5s
88 Sony Xperia Z2
88 Samsung Galaxy S5
85 Sony Xperia Z1
80 LG G2
Colour
------
82 Apple iPhone 5S
82 Samsung Galaxy S5
80 Apple iPhone 5
77 Sony Xperia Z1
76 LG G2
74 Sony Xperia Z2
Autofocus
---------
84 Sony Xperia Z2
81 Apple iPhone 5S
74 LG G2
73 Sony Xperia Z1
69 Samsung Galaxy S5
Texture
-------
83 Sony Xperia Z2
78 Samsung Galaxy S5
69 LG G2
66 Sony Xperia Z1
59 Apple iPhone 5S
Noise
-----
84 Sony Xperia Z2
84 Sony Xperia Z1
83 LG G2
78 Samsung Galaxy S5
70 Apple iPhone 5S
Artifacts
---------
91 Apple iPhone 5S
89 LG G2
83 Samsung Galaxy S5
74 Sony Xperia Z1
68 Sony Xperia Z2
Flash
-----
85 Sony Xperia Z2
84 Sony Xperia Z1
83 Apple iPhone 5S
82 Samsung Galaxy S5
72 LG G2
DxOMark Still Photo (overall rank)
-------------------- -
81 Nokia 808 PureView
81 Sony Xperia Z2
80 Samsung Galaxy S5
78 Apple iPhone 5S
77 Sony Xperia Z1
77 LG G2
These are the differences observed after analysis of over 400 photos.
pepeo123 said:
an interesting thing to note is that if you compare raw pictures of the nokia 1020 with the jpeg ones from it for example, there is a HUGE diference between them, and nokia is know from doing really good processing in cameras in general. so this makes me think how much extra performance can be achieved from the z seris with it great hardware
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is something we will only find out when android L comes out. having said that the oppo find 7a can output raw images from its 13MP sensor, and its a sony one to boot. Lumia 1520 can already output RAW.
The question that remains to be answered is, what is the shot to shot turnaround with RAW in a mobile phone. Without dedicated image processors that specialise in it things will be slow.
---------- Post added at 05:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 AM ----------
mokaigutti said:
I'm just worried this could be a hardware issue, mine is a 14W21 phone. I'm gonna do some extensive photo sessions and if they don't work out maybe try a replacement
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So that is not an earlier build. i don't see anything to worry about given what little you have posted so far.
One Twelve said:
ok, i checked the 20MP manual mode shots at 100% and can say the z2 shot is visibly better than the z1 if you look at the balcony railings left of centre and building detail right of centre.
gsmarenas z2's lens does not have any issues that i can notice. I don't know if the z1 lens is ok though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes z2 is superior, i dont know right now since this review was done in older firmware and both z1 and z2 received some firmware upgrades and z1 is even in 4.4.4. the good new for z1 owners is that its possible to port the camera apk. for z1 like they did with the 4k mod, and therefore things will be the same
One Twelve said:
Yes, i see the underlined bit at 20MP with the z2 , but check out the SA of the iso chart from gsmareana (phonearena did not have SA images to compare)
http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=1&idPhone1=6033&idPhone3=6144&idCamera2=30013
Much clearer to see the chart in SA than 20MP isn't it. Note that you see same blur with 20MP here too.
I added z1 into comparison in phonearena's chart, can you see the difference between z1 & z2.
http://www.phonearena.com/phones/ca...ony-Xperia-Z1/phones/8323,8202,8347,8000?st=2
z1 is less blurred but the compression is much more than z2. If you try to reduce the size of the image in phonearena, the z2 image remains blurred but if you look at the SA, its much more clear as shown in gsmarena.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
exactly, regarding the blurred areas, SA is better than 20mp downsampled to 8MP, and this could mean 2 things. either sony is using diferent processing, or the downsample algorithm is doing its job right. or maybe both. either way, this shows that sony has work to do
One Twelve said:
Underlined bit is somewhat true in good light, but not in low light.
Why the pictures look better, requires explanation of what better means. Did you see DxO's tests. compare z1, 5s, s5 & z2 on 7 parameters for still photo. Exposure, ontrast & Noise is very well controlled in the Z2. Artifacts is the only parameter where the Z2 trails the others. To notice that you will have to zoom into edges to see it. Not very apparent without zooming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes in low light the phone really shows its big sensor and wide aperture lens advantage, pictures are brighter and capture more, while others have darker pictures and less detailed, although the focus in low light is terrible, something that is possible to be corrected using manual mode. low light videos z2 crushes its oponents too, other phones look like they are in a darker place lol
One Twelve said:
This is something we will only find out when android L comes out. having said that the oppo find 7a can output raw images from its 13MP sensor, and its a sony one to boot. Lumia 1520 can already output RAW.
The question that remains to be answered is, what is the shot to shot turnaround with RAW in a mobile phone. Without dedicated image processors that specialise in it things will be slow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes, oppo, lumia 1020 and lumia 1520 can output raw and use sony sensors
maybe taking raw pictures is even faster, since it just takes the picture but doesnt process nothing else like it would do with JPEG,or maybe it could take longer because since its a large file, saving would take a little bit longer but? i really have no knowledge in what i am talking about here, so this is purely an speculation made by me
I was being dumb by comparing the images on the respective phone displays... On transferring them to my laptop the z2 has visibly better images overall, especially low light this is the good news... The bad news is the presence of graininess on full zoom. This is normal? (spoilt solid by previous phones, Sony satio, Nokia n8, and the best one n82)
mokaigutti said:
I was being dumb by comparing the images on the respective phone displays... On transferring them to my laptop the z2 has visibly better images overall, especially low light this is the good news... The bad news is the presence of graininess on full zoom. This is normal? (spoilt solid by previous phones, Sony satio, Nokia n8, and the best one n82)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Full zoom graininess? You realize there isn't a single phone that isn't completely grainy at full zoom right? Literally not one.... Because the zoom is digital vs optical.
TechSavvy2 said:
Full zoom graininess? You realize there isn't a single phone that isn't completely grainy at full zoom right? Literally not one.... Because the zoom is digital vs optical.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry I didn't mean zooming in during the shot, I meant after the shot is taken... In the album app. I just feel spoilt after seeing the first page of the"post your z2 snaps here" post.
mokaigutti said:
I was being dumb by comparing the images on the respective phone displays... On transferring them to my laptop the z2 has visibly better images overall, especially low light this is the good news...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The opposite can also apply, photos can look good on the z2 screen and when transferred over to a laptop appear dull or washed out. Simple reason is photo was taken in too much light ie sun light. The wider aperture and bsi sensor means chances of over exposure are more than with other cameras that do not do as well in low light or have narrower apertures. So you will have to use -EV if colours do not appear natural or alternatively take photos in softer light rather than harsh light. You have to understand how light works to get the best photos with any camera.
So ensure bravia engine is switched off in the Z2 otherwise you might think photos are better than they actually are. can always correct things in post but its less work if you get it more or less right at the outset.
mokaigutti said:
The bad news is the presence of graininess on full zoom. This is normal? (spoilt solid by previous phones, Sony satio, Nokia n8, and the best one n82)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What frame of reference are you using to say it is grainy ? What are you comparing it with.
You started this topic on that basis and have yet to substantiate it. So post photos of the same subject from other models.
I'm stuck at work and haven't been home in a while, the moment I am ill post some similar pics to compare with. I say grainy as in the images seem to be oversharpened. I'll upload some pics in a few minutes so it's a little easy to understand
Not sure if something like this has already been posted:
A post on the android subreddit describes improvements to the camera API with specific mention of Sony devices:
Sony
Sony post processing isn't as good as it could be, look at this Xperia Z sample.
If you have a high end Sony phone from the last two years I wouldn't hesitate to say that your photos and video will drastically improve with this new API if implemented well in a good app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The full post is worth a read. There may be hope for the ZU camera after all.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/2lr0d2/an_indepth_analysis_of_the_new_android_50_camera/
unidentifier said:
Not sure if something like this has already been posted:
A post on the android subreddit describes improvements to the camera API with specific mention of Sony devices:
The full post is worth a read. There may be hope for the ZU camera after all.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/2lr0d2/an_indepth_analysis_of_the_new_android_50_camera/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We were hoping that the API and RAW format was going to arrive in KK as it was rumoured back then. Having access to the RAW data will help, but a noisy sensor is a noisy sensor.
There are some photo comparisons out there of the Nexus 5 running both Kitkat and Lollipop. The improvement in quality is very very noticeable, and I will eat a hat if we don't see some improvement on the Z Ultra too.
I believe it was Forbes that tested the Nexus 5 camera.
i hope this new camera API gets unmolested RAW data from the sensor
the JPGs this thing spits out currently is horrible
Software doesn't make miracles when hardware is at fault, just think that ZU Camera is a tablet Camera and get over it
Sm0L said:
Software doesn't make miracles when hardware is at fault, just think that ZU Camera is a tablet Camera and get over it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not software, but APIs, which grants direct access to the camera hardware. This is a first time on Android. What this means is that regular devs will have access to the camera hardware, and new camera apps can actually claim to take better or different photos. Want to shoot RAW? Sure. No problem. Want to dump Sony's post-processing algorythm? Not an issue.
There's probably not any issues with the sensor and module. Sony makes incredible camera modules, and even the cameras in the iPhones are from Sony. But the iPhone camera is much better than the average flagship Android, isn't it? Yes, and that boils down to the camera software. Not the hardware. So Lollipop will probably, and hopefully make a huge difference on the Ultra's camera. Low-light will still suck though.
---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------
ShadowVlican said:
i hope this new camera API gets unmolested RAW data from the sensor
the JPGs this thing spits out currently is horrible
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's already a third party camera app for Lollipop that does this. It shoots RAW. The app itself is crappy (according to most users), but it's more of a proof of concept at this point.
H. E. Pennypacker said:
It's not software, but APIs, which grants direct access to the camera hardware. This is a first time on Android. What this means is that regular devs will have access to the camera hardware, and new camera apps can actually claim to take better or different photos. Want to shoot RAW? Sure. No problem. Want to dump Sony's post-processing algorythm? Not an issue.
There's probably not any issues with the sensor and module. Sony makes incredible camera modules, and even the cameras in the iPhones are from Sony. But the iPhone camera is much better than the average flagship Android, isn't it? Yes, and that boils down to the camera software. Not the hardware. So Lollipop will probably, and hopefully make a huge difference on the Ultra's camera. Low-light will still suck though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think you are right, imho the sensor and module of the ZU is a bit of a crap and can't get better with new APIs, but i hope your are right.
Sm0L said:
I don't think you are right, imho the sensor and module of the ZU is a bit of a crap and can't get better with new APIs, but i hope your are right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But it might get faster. I think sonys post processing is already pretty good, when you consider the sensor being crap. Especially the video stabilization is impressive, it's doing a better job than some phones with OIS. But we will see when the GPE port arrives.
madphone said:
But it might get faster. I think sonys post processing is already pretty good, when you consider the sensor being crap. Especially the video stabilization is impressive, it's doing a better job than some phones with OIS. But we will see when the GPE port arrives.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony's post-processing is the worst.
Certainly the write-up I posted suggested it's Sony's post-processing. Sony's sensor's are supposed to be best and is what's in most top phones.
Does anyone have any evidence (aside from self-referencing the XZU and Sony phones) that the 8 MP Exnor RS Sensor itself is flawed? Any other products using this sensor that also produce poor photos? Otherwise it's just a matter of opinion (without evidence) that it's sensor vs. the api.
The only other way to know for sure is to wait and see.
unidentifier said:
Certainly the write-up I posted suggested it's Sony's post-processing. Sony's sensor's are supposed to be best and is what's in most top phones.
Does anyone have any evidence (aside from self-referencing the XZU and Sony phones) that the 8 MP Exnor R Sensor itself is flawed? Any other products using this sensor that also produce poor photos? Otherwise it's just a matter of opinion (without evidence) that it's sensor vs. the api.
The only other way to know for sure is to wait and see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, we'll just have to wait i guess No reason to fight over something that doesn't have a right or wrong answer yet.
unidentifier said:
Certainly the write-up I posted suggested it's Sony's post-processing. Sony's sensor's are supposed to be best and is what's in most top phones.
Does anyone have any evidence (aside from self-referencing the XZU and Sony phones) that the 8 MP Exnor RS Sensor itself is flawed? Any other products using this sensor that also produce poor photos? Otherwise it's just a matter of opinion (without evidence) that it's sensor vs. the api.
The only other way to know for sure is to wait and see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wikipedia list the Z Ultra's camera module as the IMX134 and is shared with the Xperia L and the Huawei Ascend G6, I don't know if that's correct or not but it's listed as 1/4in sensor which I can believe as that would account for poor image quality. Comparatively the Z1 and successors use 1/2.3in sensors which are much bigger although in general for cameras, that's still on the small side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exmor
I don't believe there is any way we're going to see drastic improvements from Android 5.0, I do think Sony's image processing is an issue because they're trying to push a poor sensor too much resulting in noise reduction and sharpening which is far too aggressive. Dealing with noise is difficult, it's unsightly but the more aggressive the noise reduction is the more you lose detail but companies generally favour reducing noise at all cost on small, noisy sensors. Dialling back some of that aggressive processing will probably help the image quality a bit but ultimately it's still a small, noisy sensor and there's not much you can do with that.
John
Interestingly, this review of the Xperia L touts its "fantastic camera", concluding that "we feel that the camera is really something special. For those that want a decent camera phone, but don't want to pay loads, you might want to look at the Xperia L."
Expert Reviews say they "were impressed by the performance of its backside-illuminated camera sensor" and that it "takes some of the best low-light photos we've seen, with far more detail and less than noise than the Samsung Galaxy S4's shots. Daylight photos were acceptable if not spectacular. Contrast was impressive, with no sign of overexposure in lighter areas even on a sunlit day, but details became muddy when we zoomed in, showing the limits of the Xperia L's eight megapixels." Is the Ultra's sensor not backside-illuminated, maybe? The L also has a flash.
On the other hand, CNET is disappointed in its low-light performance. Trusted Reviews agrees, saying "Indoors, the Sony Xperia L camera is affected by yet more issues. While the camera takes balanced, good-looking photos in bright, natural light, in dim indoor lighting the white balance is off, resulting in ugly yellow tinged photos. The inbuilt flash does little to help, either." They say it does have "many positives, including a pleasing colour balance, sharp focus in shots".
PC World is generally happy with the Ascend G6's camera, saying "photo performance is generally strong — especially when you keep the Huawei’s price in mind — but we did encounter signs of flaring and feathering during testing. Image noise is present, but its at a low level, while the on-board HDR mode does a decent job at capturing detail that is otherwise lost."
These do take into consideration the price of the phones, however - they're both much cheaper than the Ultra was at launch.
Edit: All that to say, maybe there is hope in the software department.
Johnmcl7 said:
Wikipedia list the Z Ultra's camera module as the IMX134 and is shared with the Xperia L and the Huawei Ascend G6, I don't know if that's correct or not but it's listed as 1/4in sensor which I can believe as that would account for poor image quality. Comparatively the Z1 and successors use 1/2.3in sensors which are much bigger although in general for cameras, that's still on the small side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exmor
I don't believe there is any way we're going to see drastic improvements from Android 5.0, I do think Sony's image processing is an issue because they're trying to push a poor sensor too much resulting in noise reduction and sharpening which is far too aggressive. Dealing with noise is difficult, it's unsightly but the more aggressive the noise reduction is the more you lose detail but companies generally favour reducing noise at all cost on small, noisy sensors. Dialling back some of that aggressive processing will probably help the image quality a bit but ultimately it's still a small, noisy sensor and there's not much you can do with that.
John
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Triflot said:
Interestingly, this review of the Xperia L touts its "fantastic camera", concluding that "we feel that the camera is really something special. For those that want a decent camera phone, but don't want to pay loads, you might want to look at the Xperia L."
Expert Reviews say they "were impressed by the performance of its backside-illuminated camera sensor" and that it "takes some of the best low-light photos we've seen, with far more detail and less than noise than the Samsung Galaxy S4's shots. Daylight photos were acceptable if not spectacular. Contrast was impressive, with no sign of overexposure in lighter areas even on a sunlit day, but details became muddy when we zoomed in, showing the limits of the Xperia L's eight megapixels." Is the Ultra's sensor not backside-illuminated, maybe? The L also has a flash.
On the other hand, CNET is disappointed in its low-light performance. Trusted Reviews agrees, saying "Indoors, the Sony Xperia L camera is affected by yet more issues. While the camera takes balanced, good-looking photos in bright, natural light, in dim indoor lighting the white balance is off, resulting in ugly yellow tinged photos. The inbuilt flash does little to help, either." They say it does have "many positives, including a pleasing colour balance, sharp focus in shots".
PC World is generally happy with the Ascend G6's camera, saying "photo performance is generally strong — especially when you keep the Huawei’s price in mind — but we did encounter signs of flaring and feathering during testing. Image noise is present, but its at a low level, while the on-board HDR mode does a decent job at capturing detail that is otherwise lost."
These do take into consideration the price of the phones, however - they're both much cheaper than the Ultra was at launch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Solid research John and Triflot. Thank you.
Personally, I will be happy if the camera works at all with unlocked bl.
You want me to put the hammer down?
Deleted
leonbarroso said:
Do as I did - buy a semipro camera on blackfriday
Serious photography with smartphone is bull****
And I am a former Lumia 1020 owner
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why does it have to be 'serious' photography? I have many dedicated cameras from 1in sensor size up to professional full frame setups but none of those cameras are small enough to keep in my trouser pockets all the time, I tried recently going for one of the smallest dedicated cameras I could find but even that was irritating to carry in my trouser pockets alongside the phone. My phone on the other hand is always in my pocket and always to hand so it's ready to go any time when I want to take a photo unexpectedly plus its online connection means the photo is immediately ready to upload the photo if I want to as well. Some of my dedicated cameras have wifi for transferring photos but it's still a fiddle in comparison.
I don't need an amazing camera but I'm just disappointed how poor the Z ultra camera is, I find I use it like an older camera phone where it was only really handy for capturing serial numbers or information I need to quickly jot down whereas I used the Galaxy Note as a camera a fair bit and while the quality can't match the dedicated cameras it could produce reasonable pictures. I'm seriously considering going for a Note 4 and taking the hit on the screen size to get the better camera, it will be a few months before prices are reasonable so that's time to see if Sony announce anything (which I seriously doubt) or anyone else offers anything interesting with a larger screen.
With regards to the Z Ultra sensor, I'm surprised it is BSI as I thought I'd read initially when considering the phone that Sony had taken an older sensor and rebadged it as Exmor RS which made sense. There's not many sources for the camera module but the few I can find agree with Wikipedia as do sources for the Huawei and the Xperia L, is there any way to verify this in software on a Z Ultra? With regards to photo quality on the Xperia L and the Huawei G6, I am surprised by the positive comments even allowing for them being budget phones and the G6 having a faster lens (F2 rather than F2.4 on the Sony's). Then again some of the reviews of the Z Ultra aren't that hard on the camera either so it's difficult to tell objectively, DXOmark haven't tested it (admittedly I'm not convinced by their testing anyway) nor have I seen any particularly objective testing.
John