Related
First off, I want to apologize if this information is either or both regurgitated and irrelevant.
I was looking for information on eMMC, and there really isn't much, and I found an old article that describes how data reliance works with eMMC. At least a cursory look.
One of the features of Reliance (and Reliance Nitro) file system is that it never overwrites live data. It will always use free space on disk or in case there is no space, it will give “disk full” error back to the application. Reliance also has a special transaction mode called “Application-controlled”. In this case, Reliance only conducts a transaction point when asked by the application.
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Full article here. Information about integration with embedded linux, here.
What struck me was the "Application-controlled" part. It would explain the technology that is undoing changes to /system when the system kills the temp root. I wonder if its possible for temp root to trigger the "commit" function of reliance once some small changes have been made...
Hope this is of some use.
CyWhitfield said:
First off, I want to apologize if this information is either or both regurgitated and irrelevant.
I was looking for information on eMMC, and there really isn't much, and I found an old article that describes how data reliance works with eMMC. At least a cursory look.
Full article here. Information about integration with embedded linux, here.
What struck me was the "Application-controlled" part. It would explain the technology that is undoing changes to /system when the system kills the temp root. I wonder if its possible for temp root to trigger the "commit" function of reliance once some small changes have been made...
Hope this is of some use.
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Click to collapse
Just an FYI, system is an EXT4 FS. This would require not only a custom kernel, but a lot of one offs in the way it's dealing with data. From what I've seen, this isn't what they are using.
But that's a very good find, I am looking into some of the information. Never heard of this before.
Thanks for the info. I would love to find out more about how this memory technology works. More articles are welcome!
Isn't that basically just wear leveling?
Is your name Ben? Or are you perhaps searching on this because of a post that Ben made on HTC? His claim was that even with an unlocked bootloader, that the eMMC could still be locked and prevent us from getting root. This seems far fetched to me.
edufur said:
Is your name Ben? Or are you perhaps searching on this because of a post that Ben made on HTC? His claim was that even with an unlocked bootloader, that the eMMC could still be locked and prevent us from getting root. This seems far fetched to me.
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In all reality, I'm thinking this is the eventuality. Sprint knows that with root access we can circumvent the WiFi tether that they want to charge you for. They would never be OK with that.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Just an FYI, system is an EXT4 FS. This would require not only a custom kernel, but a lot of one offs in the way it's dealing with data. From what I've seen, this isn't what they are using.
But that's a very good find, I am looking into some of the information. Never heard of this before.
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Given that you have taken a much closer look at the inner workings than I have, I will defer to your observation with a caveat
According to wiki eMMC supports something called Reliable Write. This suggests that the reversion capability is a part of the eMMC standard. Reliance sounds more and more like a commercial implementation of this function decoupled from a specific media type. After looking it over again, nowhere in the article about Reliance is eMMC mentioned.
Isn't that basically just wear leveling?
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Wear leveling is a byproduct of what reliable write is doing. The difference is the ability to defer commitment of file system changes, so that a failed system update wont brick the device.
I do not know if changes made to the device are immediate and revertable (i.e., if eMMC is not told to commit a write, the changes just "go away" when its remounted). Nor do I know if reversions can be made on the fly, as we are experiencing when temp root gets deactivation.
There really isn't much information out there about this that is easy to find.
Is your name Ben? Or are you perhaps searching on this because of a post that Ben made on HTC? His claim was that even with an unlocked bootloader, that the eMMC could still be locked and prevent us from getting root. This seems far fetched to me.
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Neither. eMMC isn't "locked" per se. HTC is using some mechanism that will revert the contents of /system to a prior state when some unknown condition is met. I do not mean to suggest that this is being done through "reliable write" or "Reliance", since it has already been pointed out by someone much more knowledgable on the subject than I that a standard EXT4 file system is being used. I honestly have no idea. I found this information somewhat by accident, and thought that if it could prove useful I should share it here.
Something is dynamically protecting the contents of /system. Once the phone is rooted, I have no doubt that this "something" will be rendered quite impotent. If it were not possible to do so in the first place, OTAs wouldn't work
Sprint knows that with root access we can circumvent the WiFi tether that they want to charge you for. They would never be OK with that.
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The first part of your statement is true, Sprint knows full well that we can circumvent their attempts to charge us for WiFi tethering with root access. They have known this for years. They also know that in reality there is no way they can completely prevent someone from tethering their phone in one way or another. Even without root access. Ref: PDANet.
In my opinion, this protection of the eMMC contents was designed to reduce support costs from failed OTA updates bricking phones, and perhaps as protection against malware that can attain root, not unlike what Temp Root does.
I am not as paranoid as some here and refuse to accept that this was done specifically to thwart efforts to root the phone. The vast (and i mean VAST) majority of people who buy this phone will never even consider rooting the devices. This same majority has a subset of people that are easily stupid enough to screw up an OTA update or download and install malware.
I will take it a step further and opine that the only reason HTC is unlocking the bootloader is because we are such a minority AND that by tinkering with an unlocked device, we are actually helping HTC improve their product. They would rather have a more appealing facebook page than worry about losing a minuscule fraction of wifi tethering income.m Moreover, take a good look at where Sprint stands in the market, and what they have done recently to improve their position. They are doing a lot of really cool things, and have taken impressive steps to improve customer service and corporate image. That they would allow this bashing of HTC to continue unabated over a handful of tethering dollars is unlikely.
I appreciate your canter, very informative. A thanks will come your way.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Does pdanet allow wireless tether? I didn't think it did.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Nutzy said:
Does pdanet allow wireless tether? I didn't think it did.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
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It doesn't act as a hotspot, no.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
Nutzy said:
I appreciate your canter, very informative. A thanks will come your way.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
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Much appreciated!
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
So, I would be interested in hearing more thoughts on this. Is the eMMC independent of the OS? In other words, would a custom ROM have to obey and work with the eMMC? Or could a custom ROM be made to either disable the eMMC or make it do what we want?
edufur said:
So, I would be interested in hearing more thoughts on this. Is the eMMC independent of the OS? In other words, would a custom ROM have to obey and work with the eMMC? Or could a custom ROM be made to either disable the eMMC or make it do what we want?
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I think you're misunderstanding this. The eMMC is the memory inside the device that everything is stored on. It replaced the old NAND chips in older devices.
The OS is stored & runs off of eMMC memory, it's not independent. If you were to 'turn off' the eMMC the device would do nothing. A lot of the security features available on the chip itself probably aren't in use. HTC has been using their own form of write protection since early last year, even on the NAND based Evo 4G. I'd stake a bet they're using the same system here, and we just need to find a way to flash the ENG bootloader like we did last year to get around it.
I agree with you. reliance is setup to ward against "unauthorized" changes to the /system partitions. i believe the developer community takes way too deep a look at each action made by a corporation (htc) and view them as "big brother", when infact most changes are actually approved, reviewed, and committed by someone in accounting with no technical skills whatsoever. these people are forced to look at the bigger scheme of things and make a decision about it (after working for sprint for almost 2 years now...i can tell you how many decisions are literally made by someone who has no idea what the heck he is making decisions on).
instead of looking at them "trying to stop the development community from unlocking wireless tether" look at them as a CEO (who most of the time has no technical knowledge) and a PR rep (who really only cares about how their company is viewed) and using this kind of encryption is only there to "safeguard" their devices against attacks.
one would think the secret to perm rooting the device is triggering the reliance write function so it commits the changes instead of reloading them. if /system doesnt get changed unless theres an OTA of some sorts....theres more than likely a hash table that reliance would check against to verify...so an OTA would need to write to that table first, then make the changes....
more than likely some other noob has already said something along those lines and been flamed for it as well...just throwing it out there....
newkidd said:
.........
one would think the secret to perm rooting the device is triggering the reliance write function so it commits the changes instead of reloading them. if /system doesnt get changed unless theres an OTA of some sorts....theres more than likely a hash table that reliance would check against to verify...so an OTA would need to write to that table first, then make the changes....
........
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that stuck out in bold to me..... hmmmmmm
I probably was overlooking what eMMC was, however based on the links the user gave, I later learned a little more about its potential. It would appear that HTC is doing something along the lines of the operations expressed in the link. And if they are not fully replicating efforts, it would be a shame. I like the concept of wear leveling and efficient read/writes. It would be my hope that we could integrate all those functions within a custom rom.
I found a page on the Micron site on eMMC. In the tech notes section there are informational downloads for just one chip. Specifically, the Qualcomm QSC6695
You have to register to download them. A process I have already started. Their site claims it takes a half hour to register a new account.
Once I have the PDFs, I will attach them to the OP.
I don't know if this is the chip the evo 3d is using, but if it is these may prove beneficial to have.
EDIT: Nevermind. i'd have to sign an NDA first.
EDIT: Although, this looks interesting.
Geniusdog254 said:
A lot of the security features available on the chip itself probably aren't in use. HTC has been using their own form of write protection since early last year, even on the NAND based Evo 4G. I'd stake a bet they're using the same system here, and we just need to find a way to flash the ENG bootloader like we did last year to get around it.
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Perhaps, but a hint at the design really tells me that it would only make sense to offload this protection to the eMMC. Posted a link just a minute ago with the eMMC "enablement" model in PDF form. Interesting read...
CyWhitfield said:
I found a page on the Micron site on eMMC. In the tech notes section there are informational downloads for just one chip. Specifically, the Qualcomm QSC6695
You have to register to download them. A process I have already started. Their site claims it takes a half hour to register a new account.
Once I have the PDFs, I will attach them to the OP.
I don't know if this is the chip the evo 3d is using, but if it is these may prove beneficial to have.
EDIT: Nevermind. i'd have to sign an NDA first.
EDIT: Although, this looks interesting.
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VERY interesting link & read for sure
CyWhitfield said:
The first part of your statement is true, Sprint knows full well that we can circumvent their attempts to charge us for WiFi tethering with root access. They have known this for years. They also know that in reality there is no way they can completely prevent someone from tethering their phone in one way or another. Even without root access. Ref: PDANet.
In my opinion, this protection of the eMMC contents was designed to reduce support costs from failed OTA updates bricking phones, and perhaps as protection against malware that can attain root, not unlike what Temp Root does.
I am not as paranoid as some here and refuse to accept that this was done specifically to thwart efforts to root the phone. The vast (and i mean VAST) majority of people who buy this phone will never even consider rooting the devices. This same majority has a subset of people that are easily stupid enough to screw up an OTA update or download and install malware.
I will take it a step further and opine that the only reason HTC is unlocking the bootloader is because we are such a minority AND that by tinkering with an unlocked device, we are actually helping HTC improve their product. They would rather have a more appealing facebook page than worry about losing a minuscule fraction of wifi tethering income.m Moreover, take a good look at where Sprint stands in the market, and what they have done recently to improve their position. They are doing a lot of really cool things, and have taken impressive steps to improve customer service and corporate image. That they would allow this bashing of HTC to continue unabated over a handful of tethering dollars is unlikely.
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I completely agree with all of that. Other carriers have taken many steps to try to prevent wireless tethering. They've asked google to filter certain apps from the market from their customers, they've sent out letters to their customers who they suspect of tethering, they've used ECM's to try to stop it.
But Sprint...they've been remarkably silent on that front. Hell they don't even seem to plan on putting any usage caps in place. In my opinion, I suspect that Sprint wants to be different from the other carriers. They can't outright allow tethering because people would go nuts with it and it would saturate their network. Instead they have this approach of telling you that you can't do it without paying extra, but they look the other way when you do.
I don't know if I fully agree on why HTC locks the phone so tight though. I mean they really went out of their way to make sure nobody touches it. There could have been far more simple countermeasures in place to prevent malware yet still be open to somebody who has physical access to the phone.
It can't be that Sprint insisted on it being that way, otherwise Sprint would have insisted that the Nexus S be fully locked, so I don't believe that this is a carrier issue at all, at least not as far as the Evo 3D is concerned.
One of my suspicions is that HTC may make a profit off of having certain apps installed, much in the way that PC OEM's get paid to preload different apps (e.g. norton.) It could be that they want to make sure that you can't remove them. However that profit they make off of these apps may be significantly offset by having a really negative facebook page, hence the decision to unlock.
Hard to say really.
This is a quote from the Sprint forums. I happened to subscribe to the thread and got this through e-mail:
I have seen first hand the current level of protection HTC has built into the device, and it is impressive. Should some rogue software use an exploit to obtain root, and make changes to the /system partition, the system detects this, revokes the root priveledge from the process that obtained it, then reverses all changes to /system. The technology behind part of this is a feature of eMMC called reliable write. A write-up on a commercial adaptation of this is http://blog.datalight.com/doing-in-place-os-updates-for-embedded-devices here. This sounds ideal for ensuring that a failed OTA update won't break the phone, and protection against malware and the like, but it also makes it impossible to flash roms or make other customisations to the core of the phone.
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-Posted by some guy named MS072467
Here is the link to the original discussion on Sprint.com:
http://community.sprint.com/baw/message/313016#313016
Wow is all i can say thatrs really involved thanks a lot HTC (eyes roll)
Sucks for root but makes the phone much safer from malware.
Seriously, it's a piece of brilliance as far as system security goes, and I hope we can continue to use it to our advantage once we've cracked the phone open, as it's a great idea. The problem is not that the system reverts writes, it's that we can't tell it what writes are good. We're locked out of our own devices, and the built-in security measures are being used against the owners. That's not good.
canteenboy said:
Sucks for root but makes the phone much safer from malware.
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Malware is really that big of a problem to warrant a complete lock-down of the phone? Been using Android for over a year, downloading any app I felt like, and never once had a "virus" take over my phone.
Mike
mikeyxda said:
Malware is really that big of a problem to warrant a complete lock-down of the phone? Been using Android for over a year, downloading any app I felt like, and never once had a "virus" take over my phone.
Mike
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Does that mean we ignore system security? Malware might not have been a serious problem before, but you throw something like this in, and it all but guarantees that it will continue to not be a problem for some time to come.
Again, the problem here is not that the phone is locked down, the problem is that the owners didn't get the key when they bought the property.
I honestly dont see this as a big saving grace. After all, most malware is likely to come in the form of rogue legit looking apps like a keyboard that could log our passwords without needing root.
IMO they weren't thinking of malware when they implemented this, they were thinking of xda!
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
naw they were more thinking about how much $$$ they would save from being able to effectively push a software update correctly the first time...
if they were really that worried about keeping "xda" out of the phone they wouldnt be unlocking bootloaders. i cant even begin to tell you how much easier my job would be if i didnt have to replace one more device because they did an update and now their phone doesnt work.
sn0b0ard said:
This is a quote from the Sprint forums. I happened to subscribe to the thread and got this through e-mail:
-Posted by some guy named MS072467
Here is the link to the original discussion on Sprint.com:
http://community.sprint.com/baw/message/313016#313016
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That would be me I started a similar thread on the subject here. It was moved to General from Dev some time ago.
Just to clarify, Reliable Write being the culprit was just an assumption, based on what we all see happening when /system reverts, and that it would be the most logical mechanism for performing the reversions, given that it is a feature of eMMC to begin with.
There was a dev who replied to the original thread that disagreed, and thought it may be a proprietary emulation of similar technology.
I contacted Micron to get permission to view the documentation of the technology but never received a reply.
sn0board - Many thanks for the helpful info.
The Shift uses eMMC and we had perm root after a fairly short time - lotta work (tip of the topper for the many who worked that) - but we got it.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=932153
I wonder if they'd implemented that feature for the Shift - visionary or z4root provide workable temp root without the difficulties here.
CyWhitfield said:
That would be me I started a similar thread on the subject here. It was moved to General from Dev some time ago.
Just to clarify, Reliable Write being the culprit was just an assumption, based on what we all see happening when /system reverts, and that it would be the most logical mechanism for performing the reversions, given that it is a feature of eMMC to begin with.
There was a dev who replied to the original thread that disagreed, and thought it may be a proprietary emulation of similar technology.
I contacted Micron to get permission to view the documentation of the technology but never received a reply.
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Ahh makes sense now. The more information we can get on the protection mechanisms behind eMMC and the Evo 3D, the better.
It's odd that they keep moving these posts that talk about the protection of the eMMC. I mean, if we can't disable this write protection, then how are we going to develop ROMs for it in the first place?
sn0b0ard said:
Ahh makes sense now. The more information we can get on the protection mechanisms behind eMMC and the Evo 3D, the better.
It's odd that they keep moving these posts that talk about the protection of the eMMC. I mean, if we can't disable this write protection, then how are we going to develop ROMs for it in the first place?
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Given that arguably the largest obstacle to loading the ENG bootloader is this eMMC protection, I don't understand how its considered irrelevant to development either.
In a way, I hope it is irrelevant. I hope its easier to break this thing than what I have read in the articles I posted would suggest.
eMMC JEDEC standard
I'm not sure who makes the eMMC chips in our phones even though I heard someone say Micron, but I would assume the support or use JEDEC standards which attempts to standardize environment, data handling and such. I am not sure what the current standard is even though I think it is 4.41. Here is an interesting pdf on mapped commands and bit setting used to handle the writing of data to eMMC. Standard in this PDF is 4.4.
http://rere.qmqm.pl/~mirq/JESD84-A44.pdf
Jason0071 said:
I'm not sure who makes the eMMC chips in our phones even though I heard someone say Micron, but I would assume the support or use JEDEC standards which attempts to standardize environment, data handling and such. I am not sure what the current standard is even though I think it is 4.41. Here is an interesting pdf on mapped commands and bit setting used to handle the writing of data to eMMC. Standard in this PDF is 4.4.
http://rere.qmqm.pl/~mirq/JESD84-A44.pdf
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Interesting find
English isn't my first language, otherwise I'd write one myself.
I'm looking for a good english writer to write a petition to B&N to provide the development community with an ability to access the bootloader and root the device.
I think main points should be that they've made a lot of money by allowing people to mod original NC, and that this will greatly increase the interest in purchasing the NT. Also, worth mentioning some examples of devices like Captivate that really benefited from custom community development (improved GPS, fixed many bugs, early GB port, etc).
Basically persuade B&N to support and appreciate development community and give us means to develop for them.
Needless to mention, only use words like "develop", "improve", etc... not "hack" and "crack" lol.
Here's the site I found where we can collect signatures:
http://www.makeuseof.com/dir/petitionspotcom/
POST IT HERE first, then we'll go and make it official.
PS: before anybody goes all "they ain't gonna listen yo" - let me remind you of Samsung's support to SuperCurio about improving Galaxy S's sound processing. After community asked Samsung, they actually provided full support and helped SuperCurio improve the device.
Providing a device and documentation is VERY different from unlocking a bootloader, unfortunately...
Entropy512 said:
Providing a device and documentation is VERY different from unlocking a bootloader, unfortunately...
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Indeed, but I think my point remains - this is another avenue of "attack" to get B&N to support us.
Our hackers are approaching this from technical side, I want to try and help and organize a line of communication with B&N and see if we can get them to help us.
Get your petition up and I'll sign! I was going to get a NT but now I'm not so sure. If it can't run from a dual booting SD card, it's just not worth it. Might as well pony up and get a "real" tablet.
Assuming the bootloader is proven to be locked, I'm simply taking mine back. The apps I use on the Nook Color *must* be available on the Nook Tablet, or it's not worth my money.
I hate to say it, but I'm in the same boat. I bought it because of what was accomplished with the NC and because of B&N's assurances that the same would be possible with the NT.
goldenu said:
Assuming the bootloader is proven to be locked, I'm simply taking mine back. The apps I use on the Nook Color *must* be available on the Nook Tablet, or it's not worth my money.
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iamnarada said:
I hate to say it, but I'm in the same boat. I bought it because of what was accomplished with the NC and because of B&N's assurances that the same would be possible with the NT.
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what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
postulio said:
what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
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agreed. i'm a little confused. I get the SD boot issue being a problem, but I haven't come across any apps that I use that couldn't be sideloaded.
maybe i'm just old and don't use some of the stuff you guys use?
I really enjoy the NT but don't know how long I will keep it if I constantly have to use workarounds to get any functionality out of it.
No custom kernels / ROMs
No Android Market
No settings page
No root (so far at least)
Nook button opens Nook launcher only
i dunno, I guess I'm just more patient than most. I really didn't expect to buy it and have it as functional as it is already, leave alone rooted or installing custom roms. I expected that in a few months....
I'm just glad I could install a real browser, and have access to install the apks i wanted.
postulio said:
what are you guys running on the NC that you cant run on the NT?
you can sideload apps onto the NT and run goLauncher etc...
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Click to collapse
Well, all of the Google apps install fine, but when I try to sign in to my account or associate it my account with the tablet, it tells me my user name or password is wrong. So effectively, I can't use any of the Google apps. I can log in to my google account in the browser, and access the web versions of the apps, but....what I was looking for really was to be able to put the ROM I wanted on it.
Add me to the list of those with a clock ticking. Picked mine up on the 16th, and it stays wrapped until we know if the NT can be rooted - or day 14 - whichever comes first.
Progress is great so far - but I don't want a device that can be locked down with any random update from B&N. Based on their earlier broken promises, they have about zero credibility for things said.
Let me retract my line about broken promises - that was Amazon that promised no rooting roadblocks - and they kept to their word. I don't think B&N made any statement about this.
A petition is good, for sure. But it doesn't hurt if everyone also contacted B&N [[email protected]] and explained personally and sincerely why it would be in their best interest to unlock the Tablet. I'd focus on how their specs are superior, but useless if they're not open. I'd mention the limited space for side-loading, and enabling 3rd party apps.
I'd remind them how popular their Nook Color got, and free press, when the NC was rooted. And use the MS Kinect & Linksys WRT-54G as examples of success stories when a company adopts and opens their hardware.
I thought everyone knows that e-petition is totally worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, since it gives you a false sense of complacency.
If rooting is that important to you, then take more effort than the few keyclicks to fill out an e-petition.
Take your purchased NT to the nearest B&N store. Return it, and make sure you give the reason why it's being returned, that the NT is hostile to tech enthusiasts. Say that you'll now consider the Kindle Fire because of its more tech-friendly mindset (whether that's true or not). Say that given your status as the go-to tech dude, you'll recommend against the NT for any who asks.
Ask to speak to a manager or a tech specialist; you don't want your words wasted on a grunt. Be polite but firm at all times.
Money speaks the loudest. Let your money speak for you. Buy something else.
e.mote said:
I thought everyone knows that e-petition is totally worthless. Actually, it's worse than worthless, since it gives you a false sense of complacency.
If rooting is that important to you, then take more effort than the few keyclicks to fill out an e-petition.
Take your purchased NT to the nearest B&N store. Return it, and make sure you give the reason why it's being returned, that the NT is hostile to tech enthusiasts. Say that you'll now consider the Kindle Fire because of its more tech-friendly mindset (whether that's true or not). Say that given your status as the go-to tech dude, you'll recommend against the NT for any who asks.
Ask to speak to a manager or a tech specialist; you don't want your words wasted on a grunt. Be polite but firm at all times.
Money speaks the loudest. Let your money speak for you. Buy something else.
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Click to collapse
If everyone were to do what you're saying, B&N would lose 3% of NT's total sales (judging by statistics someone referenced here), call it within a sales estimation margin of error and ignore it.
And we'd all be left without a $250 tablet, or with a ****tier one.
Sorry, don't like your solution. It'd only work if, say, 25%+ of NT buyers wanted root.
And you think e-petitions are better? Good luck with that.
There are different ways to communicate. Some more effective, some less. E-petition is at the bottom of the heap, followed by e-mail.
Money--ie making vendor lose money with refunds--is the most powerful method of persuasion. Sure, there may not be enough people to make the vendor reconsider, but it beats moping around and twirling your thumbs, hoping the vendor will change its mind with some dumb e-petition, no?
BTW, techies have an outsized influence on vendor decisions, as long as they know the proper buttons to push. B&N right now is in a battle with Amazon for e-readers. Saying that you'll get a Kindle Fire, and will recommend everyone to do so, is a big button you can push. Forcing the vendor to lose money with refunds is another.
In any case, if your envisioned use is a rooted NT, then this isn't it, so why hang onto it? If/when the NT is rooted, you can always buy it again.
e.mote said:
And you think e-petitions are better? Good luck with that.
There are different ways to communicate. Some more effective, some less. E-petition is at the bottom of the heap, followed by e-mail.
Money--ie making vendor lose money with refunds--is the most powerful method of persuasion. Sure, there may not be enough people to make the vendor reconsider, but it beats moping around and twirling your thumbs, hoping the vendor will change its mind with some dumb e-petition, no?
BTW, techies have an outsized influence on vendor decisions, as long as they know the proper buttons to push. B&N right now is in a battle with Amazon for e-readers. Saying that you'll get a Kindle Fire, and will recommend everyone to do so, is a big button you can push. Forcing the vendor to lose money with refunds is another.
In any case, if your envisioned use is a rooted NT, then this isn't it, so why hang onto it? If/when the NT is rooted, you can always buy it again.
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Click to collapse
People have different reasons.
For one, if I were to call for mass returns of NT, that'd greatly decrease interest in rooting the NT, which makes it even worse. If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies. As I've mentioned, ask SuperCurio and his collaboration with Samsung.
I, for one, had a $100 gift card for B&N, so it's $150 NT versus $200 KF for me. Regardless, even without that giftcard, I'd still not go for KF when there's NT around, cause KF is just gimped and kinda useless.
Regardless, can we please return to the topic of this thread - I'm looking for someone's help writing a letter to B&N asking them for help achieving root for developers.
>If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
I've no interest in the KF, and for now, the NT. But it doesn't hurt to tell B&N that I consider their competition to be better, for persuasion purposes.
>And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies.
"not with decent companies"..
Life's experience isn't something that can be told, I suppose. Good luck with your quixotic quest. Please do keep the NT past the return period, and make B&N happy.
Yes, let's return to the topic of e-petition. Below is a piece that'll let you know your chances. Welcome to the world of SLACKTIVISM.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp
e.mote said:
>If you decided NT is not for you and u want KF - godspeed, I'm sure you've got your reasons.
I've no interest in the KF, and for now, the NT. But it doesn't hurt to tell B&N that I consider their competition to be better, for persuasion purposes.
>And no, petitions are NOT worthless. Not with decent companies.
"not with decent companies"..
Life's experience isn't something that can be told, I suppose. Good luck with your quixotic quest. Please do keep the NT past the return period, and make B&N happy.
Yes, let's return to the topic of e-petition. Below is a piece that'll let you know your chances.
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp
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Dude, we get it. You're not happy. Return your NT and leave the NT forum. We're all just trying to have a friendly discussion here. There's no need to be so negative. Thank you.
Sent from my Nook Tablet using Tapatalk
... give us a copy of Bootloader unlocker!
Pleeeeeeeaseeeeeeee
They have a bootloader unlocker? I thought they were just going to system restores and stuff like that. Getting anything they have would be a huge benefit to the community.
To any of you B&N employee's if you don't feel comfortable publicly posting that stuff just pm a dev or really anyone on here you feel like. I'm sure lots of us wouldn't mind being the middle man(myself included).
…if you were work for Barnes & Noble, you're in less of a position to help anyone than we are.
What are you expecting, exactly? Someone to leak a signing key and they lose their job for a $250 tablet?
As a consumer, the best thing you can do is not buy the Nook Tablet. It's the best way to send a message to B&N.
tamasrepus said:
As a consumer, the best thing you can do is not buy the Nook Tablet. It's the best way to send a message to B&N.
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YES!
Spot on!
come on! Who doesn't want to participate in a little corporate espionage?
tamasrepus said:
As a consumer, the best thing you can do is not buy the Nook Tablet. It's the best way to send a message to B&N.
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Yeah us android geeks not buying the ipad has really helped to make them realize to make their stuff more open and less commie.
By not buying and being silent, how is Barnes and noble going to get the message. Companies are far more likely to listen to paying customers. Remember nowadays XDA is a amazing resource for manufacturers. How many articles have been written about breakthroughs developers made at XDA. Thats free publicity and free development for them.
I am sure Barnes and noble pays somebody to check this forum, and others. That is why I suggested that i somebody wanted to leak something they could anonymously PM somebody on here and get it out that way.
B&N: get the message
I second and third and fourth that. B&N has two markets for their product, and if they purposefully make it very difficult to root the device, they are going to lose one of those markets. I'd buy a Nook tablet tomorrow if I were comfortable with being able to achieve a clean install of a rooted image, but without that, I'll likely go to another device. It would be a shame.
As mentioned before... the XDA crowd is not likely the market for this device due to the fact that the device is most likely lost leading.... It's in no way the interest of BN to provide any of the tools for you to do this.
Don't believe me? Look at the current sideloading situation... People are already on the Android/Amazon markets which technically means money out of BN's coffers...
trippap said:
I second and third and fourth that. B&N has two markets for their product, and if they purposefully make it very difficult to root the device, they are going to lose one of those markets. I'd buy a Nook tablet tomorrow if I were comfortable with being able to achieve a clean install of a rooted image, but without that, I'll likely go to another device. It would be a shame.
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In all reality they didn't make it hard to root at all. Root was achieved by modifying usb drivers and using a known exploit. B&N had plenty of time to lock this tablet down way more than it is. Even sideloading is super easy. The bootloader is another matter all together, still I have a feeling somebody will find a simple workaround
>In all reality they didn't make it hard to root at all.
I don't think B&N had much to do with the low-level stuff, just the top-level design. The locked bootloader as has been said was likely for Netflix HD cert, since OMAP4 already had that feature. They didn't need to do anything extra. Otherwise, it's the same custom layer on top of 2.x.
The NT even retained the 1GB user-space which is a carryover from NC. Some modicum of sense would've shown that you don't need 12GB for app space, and would've avoided the bad reviews. Per Occam's Razor, don't attribute malice when incompetence will do.
tamasrepus said:
What are you expecting, exactly? Someone to leak a signing key and they lose their job for a $250 tablet?
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Click to collapse
Quoted for truth. The M-Shield security setup that is locking down the bootloader uses a one-time-programmable e-fuse inside the cpu so that the key it's looking for or the logic to do so can never be reprogrammed. Unless I missing something in their setup I don't see how a bootloader unlocker would be possible. Instead they would have to give use their private key to sign our own files
The more I read about the locked bootloader, the more I regret purchasing the tablet. They have, however, made some promising progress with this tablet, and I haven't heard anyone say definitively that it is not possible to bypass this obstacle.
For the record, is the kindle fire's bootloader locked?
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
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Click to collapse
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
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Click to collapse
Zel pretty neatly answered this, but I will also add that modern consumer electronics interact with the immediate environment far more than our pcs do. Light sensors, 3g radios, barometers, etc. are far less deterministic than our classic closed-loop pcs. Part of this perception of flux is based on this real flux, for example one of the core features people will discuss is call/modem quality, but driver tweaking vs. actual signal strength is a pretty fuzzy battle for anyone but an electrical/firmware engineer. And just like in the pc world, when you're talking under volting and over clocking your mileage will vary.
If you are methodical and read all the materials, your phone will operate tip top. It seems to me a lot (not all) of the variances often do boil down to the users configuration.
Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
I have fixed a lot of computers and have been flashing custom roms for a year and ill tell you, in my personal opinion, problems are 90% user error. If people would all install properly and wipe everything completely and follow everything they're told to do and read all possible material on what they're flashing they can, a huge portion of the problems would dissapear. But is that gonna happen? I hope so
Heck I make mistakes too. None of us are immune to screwing up right? Good luck all, happy flashing.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Eckyx said:
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
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Click to collapse
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
zelendel said:
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
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Just to chime in on the Windows thing - we buy a standard build HP computer at work for all developers. But if you put the same Windows disk in two of them and boot and install accepting all the defaults, there will always be slight variations in the way it configures itself between the two. It's probably the hardware detection that does it, but I swear you could get two of the same build lot and you'd STILL get something that didn't set up the same way. Sunspots? Power surge during the process? I dunno, but it does vary
You cant change the disk. Your network adapter has a MAC adress on it... windows will know something has changed. motherboard also has one.
A PC component are not the same at all.
You can buy a good I7 2600k or a bad I7 2600k. There are revisions of the very same model of CPU, memory, everything and its really hard to make 1 equal another.
Another thing is that one smartphone is a lot more delicate piece of hardware and the most important, has limited power to it components.
That makes harder to change anything on it. A small change could lead you to a failure.
just blame it on the ghosts in the machine and be done with it
votinh said:
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
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Click to collapse
This is not the case. I have tested with two different EVO 4Gs and two different SGS IIs - of the same hardware revision, even.
I performed the same steps to root and ROM both of the sets of phones, and put the same ROM on them. There were no other apps installed, nor themes/addons. I then used each as my phone for a week, making sure that I installed identical apps and even synced app data.
Both performed differently. My i777 is the faster of the two, but my EVO 4G was the slower and more bug-prone.
Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but I at least am convinced. Take it as you will.
Also the phones are made with lower quality checks than desktop. ie I can oc my sgs 1 up to 1.6GHz but uv of -25, the phone well restart. But other people can't go more than 1.2 and cab apply a uv of -150 on the same step.
This is a fact. Think if every phone it's done with high quality checks the price of the device will raise pretty high.
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
sremick said:
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
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Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
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That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
sremick said:
That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
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I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
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Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
The simple answer is, there is no answer. Its the nature of the process.
I've had one click roms fail the 1st attempt only to succeed the 2nd without even closing the Odin just reconnect the phone.
Either you accept that and have fun with it. Or stick to stock and move on.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
sremick said:
Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
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No you're actually wrong because sometimes things CAN go wrong with flashing stuff. And modems in fact do work better in some places than others even though they try to make them universal it is very difficult to do that. Also, if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it? Riddle me that one. Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it?
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Click to collapse
He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
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Click to collapse
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
Ok Here is the thing. I have personally been flashing and making custom roms for phones as far back as the Motorola razor v3. I have multiple phone running the exact same firmware, set up the exact same way and the have run totally differently. If all phone were made equal then there would be no returns due to issues the phone had as they would have all run the same and acted the same as the units that the OEM quality control tested. Lets take the Black Jack 2 as an example. The BJII was a WM phone that would self corrupt the system/media folder. This prevented any ringtones from working and the OS had to be reflashed. All this running on Stock firmware. This didnt happen to all of them, but became a well known glitch to anyone that did cell phone troubleshooting and repair. Did you ever stop to think why OEM and carriers dont use the roms from places like XDA? This is because things here are always under development. There will always be bugs. In the end the developers are making things for their phones and are nice enough to share it for others to use. Some do keep making roms for phones they dont have as this is overly not hard to do. They do this just to be nice. Except for the hardware drivers most of the under lying OS is all the same.
If a dev cant reproduce it then there is no way for them to fix it with the way people tend to report bugs. (The wrong way without the proper info)
Now lets jump to the present. I have 4 phones sitting on my desk. 2 are the HTC Inspire and 2 are the Samsung Captivate. Both running the exact same rom and apps, but guess what. They run very differently. On 1 Inspire and 1 captivate, I can OC to almost double, while the other 2 cant handle more then 1.2 over clock.
One of them also doesnt like the AOSP based software while the others are fine.
As for your backing up and restoring. It can take a long time if you have a TON of apps. Flashing custom roms are not for everyone. If you dont have the time or the want to learn something then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
sremick said:
He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with your point about the dev/user relationship. It can get pretty hostile sometimes which is completely unnecessary. Recently, I've been trying to emphasize the respect rule, regardless of who you are. Patience and cooperation can go a long way. And as zelendel said, sometimes people do report stuff the wrong way, but there's no need to be rude about it. Again, patience goes a long way.
Back to the main thing though, I'm not entirely sure how 2 fresh-out-of-the-box phones would work with the same settings and ROMs, but as others said, environmental and external factors can stress the phone and stuff just goes wrong. My phone, for example, would not operate the same as a fresh-out-of-the-box SGS2, even if you put the exact same stuff on it. Stuff just starts freaking out, and I'm pretty sure my phone is having hardware issues :[