It has come to my attention that a few people have been misunderstanding a few recent posts by myself. This is post is to clear the waters up a bit and to explain my position as a developer here on XDA.
As many of you guys know, we're probably the most lively "dead" device on XDA. At least in my opinion that is. We have been through a lot as a community but we still manage to survive. But recently things have been getting a little tense.
I received this device last summer like most of you have. When I got it, I immediately started figuring out how to get CM7 on it. Problem is that it was my first Android phone and with all the ways that Motorola locked it down I had a lot to learn and no time to learn it. After I learned off and on how to get things working on the X2 during the NO free time I had last fall I cranked out a pretty much solid CM7 in a week.
Now for the explanation for CM9/ICS. Most people probably think that since I could crank out CM7 so fast that I would be able to do the same with CM9 and make it just as good and amazing as CM7. Although I had it booted on the first build, it was FULL of errors and the touch screen didn't even work. ICS and CM9 is definitely not as easy as CM7. CM7 was already a year and a half in the making and had most of the problems worked out on all the devices that when it finally came time for us, it would just as smooth as butter as soon as it was booted. CM9 hasn't had time to develop into a "smooth" ROM for most devices; especially non-official like ours. The code for the touchscreen to work wasn't even in CM9 on my first build, for example. The problems for CM9/ICS can be narrowed down to a few things:
Graphics Memory
No Official ICS
Kernel Improvements
Graphics Memory and No Official ICS: Due to the way that ICS handles the way it puts stuff on our screen we run into Video RAM (VRAM) problems on our device. Basically the routines that control it are expecting the memory to be mapped (stored) in a certain way in VRAM. On a device that has ICS officially, this isn't as big as a problem as the proprietary files (props) are coded to respond to those requests and mappings and as such run smoother. If a device doesn't have ICS, most it usually has a similar device in which props can be pulled and ran accordingly.
This is not the case for Tegra 2 phones as no Tegra 2 device has official ICS. In fact the Tegra kernel (just looked this up) is only at 2.6.34-rc3 officially and have a 3.1.10 kernel in developement (Motorola can update it again to .35 if they wish to do so like for the ATRIX). Because of the lack of an official Tegra 2 kernel for Linux 3.X, and likewise the props for such kernel, we can't have props that handle the requests the system is asking for. And even if another phone gets updated, we're locked and stuck, so It doesn't matter either way. This means that VRAM problems will probably always be there and that there is nothing that I can do for it. Best thing I can hope for (and this is slowly making it's way through CM9) is that the code in CM9 is updated to allow us to handle the VRAM differently like in CM7/GB.
Kernel Improvements: The kernel (that's supposed to be) for ICS is 3.0 or higher. This includes changes in memory as stated above, touchscreen handling, device interaction with the kernel and many others. That being said, we don't have those improvements thus causing problems. These include memory as stated above, touchscreen not working (obviously fixed), data usage not working, data monitoring not working, and a few various ways other routines to draw to the screen and handle other things (such as why Chrome is picky). Some of these can be backported (downgraded) to our kernel with mixed results.
Problem is they have to be complied with our kernel and must match the kernel version in every way. That is why the kernel check is in CM7 and CM9. I can slowly work through implementing these routines through drivers known as kernel modules (mods). I have made mods for data usage (with a few issues) and another one (which not sure what it's supposed to do yet). I cannot (as in it's impossible) write them to change the memory handling. If I could even build them the kernel won't let me load them due to routines of same name fighting for control.
Think of it like the phone is a car and you and your friend are in the front (the kernel routines) and you have the exact same name. Meanwhile, you have another friend in the back (the OS). The OS says, "Hey Routines Named the Same, grab the wheel and turn turn left!" You would turn it to your left, but your friend (the other routine) has a different view of what left is and instead wants to go to your right. Obviously some problems arise.
Regarding the Soft Keys Issue: I know a few of you guys are a little upset regrading the fact that I won't add the soft keys in there by default. I have a justifiable reason behind not adding them: our phone already has buttons.
Our phone was designed to have hardware buttons that separate from the screen. Adding more buttons to the screen for buttons that already exist is not advantageous. It also unnecessarily takes up screen space that makes our phone our phone. Now you may be thinking, "Well the GNex has the soft keys on the screen..." You are correct. But the screen itself has actually been extended (as in a non-standard physical height) to accommodate for the soft keys and also has no hardware buttons for the menu and home, etc. In fact! The Nexus S (a still HIGHLY developed for, supported device and previous "Google Phone") doesn't even have the soft keys enabled from the software directly available from Google themselves.
With that being said, XDA user csking33 has made the option of softkeys available to the public should you choose to enable it. He has it working on the current Alpha 4 and I look forward to him getting them working on Alpha 5 when I release it. You can download it here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1727680.
That is just a short (believe me when I say it's short) explanation as to why ICS is just a FUN FUN FUN thing to work with.
Personal Problems (I have a lot): This is not meant to be a whine-a-thon, more of an explanation of why I can't be as dedicated as I'd like to be. I have explained why ICS is a pain, I'm here to give you a brief rundown as to why I (personally) can't just make things work. I am a student studying Aerospace Engineering (not Computer Science or whatever else). It has kept me so insanely busy that I can't even begin to describe how much little time I have. I spend all day at school and all night doing the homework for it. I was lucky (once) when my Flight Structures II homework only took 5 hours to do. With so many long homework assignments and group projects it's a miracle I even survive. Next semester will be worse because now I have to actually design and build a model plane from scratch that does whatever my professors says it has to do. This is includes the whole design, approval process, building, testing, breaking, fixing, getting approved again, get it flown, doing it's mission and presenting our project. All that on top of the homework I have to do.
Whenever I do get free time during the day, I try to spend it with my girlfriend and/or friends or (if it's a few days) I go to visit my family (this weekend I am, for example). Family and friends have always a top priority of mine since forever and I won't let a phone be the reason why I don't see them IF I see them. In fact the donation money you guys have supported me with is going to get new tires for my car before I go visit my family. It has also bought me spare batteries and cables for when I really mess things up.
After all this is said and done, I stay up to 4 am working on the phone so that you guys can have a semi-legitimate Android experience. I do it because I want to and because we as a community deserve it.
It saddens me to know that I'm (essentially) the only one left working on the X2. Others pop their head in every once and awhile to help or to do what they want and that is GREAT. I love it. I'm always more than willing to help others out if they ask. And all they have to do is ask. PM me here on XDA, join me in the IRC or tweet me on Twitter. I'll be sure to get to it eventually.
TL;DR:
CM9/ICS will be unstable for as long as I can see in the future. There is not much I can do.
No I won't enable soft keys, there is no point in a default build. See the post if you wish to enable them.
I'm a really, really busy man but I do what I can. You guys have helped tremendously in supporting my work and helping me live a little easier
Thanks for the explanation. At this point I guess all we can do is hope that someone at Motorola feels sorry for us and leaks us some goodies. I bet with the unlocked goodness ICS would scream on this phone, even with it's less-than-optimal amount of RAM.
I just want to personally thank you for everything you have done with this phone. I still use CM7 as my daily driver and love it despite the Wifi and the root issues and will continue to use it until I say F you to Motorola and get a different phone a little more dev friendly.
You are doing a great job keeping the DX2 afloat. If you can get ICS in this phone you'll have a very bright future ahead of you. I wish you the best of luck but I don't think you need it
I don't know anything about developing, modding or themes and I won't imagine how hard it must be to do what you have done for the DX2. For that and more: Thank You! Im sure we'll be happy to throw a dollar or two your way.. it's the least we can do. :good:
M-
question
you say no tegra2 has i c s
what about xoom?
was just asking in case that could give you done ideas
good luck DZK, keep killing it
I'm glad you came out with this post. I have had this phone since last summer like you and since then I have used both of your ROMs and have followed your work. Mainly because there are not very many developers still developing for this phone. Lol. I think a lot of people needed to hear this. you don't come in here that much and are not very active in the forums. Not that it's your fault or anything. we all know that you're busy. But people are used to regular updates. Even if they are just verbal ones. So when a dev takes their time and no one hears anything, they don't understand. Most of us in here explain your situation when someone comes in here asking about stuff. We are all grateful for what you have given us so far and the things that are coming down the road. Without you there would be no development for this phone. As much as everyone would like to believe, we all know you are not just some guy sitting behind a desk all day working for us. By the sound of it, it looks like school is going to be getting a lot more busy for you which means less updates for us. By the time you get around to developing again for this phone I may have moved on to another. Just want to say again. Thanks :good:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
ashclepdia said:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
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I would think this is more for the newcomers here that don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Have you SEEN the kind of things people ask him on twitter? Lol
+1
ashclepdia said:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
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Sent from my DROID X2 using xda app-developers app
I'm not a dev, but I am a project manager who works very closely with them, on very large scale deployments. Something that has always impressed me about you Bryan, is your prioritization and time management. Knowing where to focus energy in order to achieve maximum result, especially when strapped with limited resources, is a skill not as common as one might think--you've got it in spades.
I guarantee when you enter the work force, it's going to be something that sets you apart from a group of otherwise smart guys. Project managers and directors will LOVE you for that skill set.
That being said, thanks for giving us a portion of a sorely needed resource, it's appreciated.
DK you are the man! Thanks for everything!!! You and nitro saved the x2 without you two the x2 would be crap! Family is always first. Good luck with everything!
---------- Post added at 02:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 AM ----------
ashclepdia said:
also just wanted to add that I'm surprised you felt the need to explain yourself, pretty stand up thing to do,
i would HOPE no one gives you guff for having a real life with , priorities, but then again this is x d a haha
this is something you do for fun, we all should realize that, and it's awesome that you have gotten as far as you have
keep plugging away bro (at real life)
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+1000
Edit: I can't believe the asterisks...lol
**** whoever said what, ungrateful bastard!
Life first, just include Android in it
You are the miracle maker dragonzkiller, if anyone ever says less keep your head high and **** em...never a need to explain.
Keep doing what your doing, it rocks!!!
Ps sorry bout the language, it's a Jersey thing...lol
DROID DOES, Apple did...like I forgot when
I'm with the others, it's always nice to hear what's what, but you should never have felt it any kind of explanation was owed to us.
Even if you suddenly had to put it all to the side permanently, you'll always have my gratitude.
Droid X2 > Eclipse 2.2.1 > Tapatalk
Cheers DZK!! Thanks for your time which is not owed to anyone. Side projects are good esp. when going into difficult job fields. The distractions are going to be what keeps you going. Best of luck to you!
I do wonder now though if it makes more sense to continue to tweak CM7 than CM9.
jsgraphicart said:
I would think this is more for the newcomers here that don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Have you SEEN the kind of things people ask him on twitter? Lol
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i don't think i HAVE seen what is said to him in twitter...Hope it ain't some crazy crap
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Hey just want to stop in and say thanks for the work you do on this phone. And I agree with the what others have said you don't owe us anything we are just greatful with what ever time we can steal from you.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda app-developers app
Look, thanks every and as such. For those of you who think that I have to explain myself, I pretty much do. A lot of you guys know the basics behind what it is I'm dealing with, but don't KNOW. If that makes any sense. I really enjoy working on this device and working with the community. I know it seems like I might get snappy sometimes or I'm short with my answers, but please just keep in mind that I have a lot of things on my plate and that I mean well.
Someone pointed out that the XOOM is running a Tegra 2. I did forget that fact, however even with that being the case, it has helped us very little in our endeavors. In fact it's still on 2.6.35 if I remember correctly and the props are still designed with that in mind. However it is still an updated kernel to work with ICS and such still causes some problems.
DZK, man I appreciate all your efforts! I don' t have the plate you do to deal with but I can surely understand where you are coming from.
I do believe that the majority of the community appreciates tremendously what you do for us, and the ones that can't be patient and understand well they can just flip off!
Thanks man!
Dragonzkiller you have done so much for this community and our X2. Would you be interested in a 2 month old PERFECT condition Dinc2? At least you would get a phone with official ICS and it actually already does since UKB is using the official kernel from the China released OTA. Its a great phone with great battery life just a smaller screen. You have done so much for us I would be happy to hook you up with a great deal. One I won't be able to tell my wife about lol
DZK, I too am an engineering student currently, and I fully understand what you are/will be dealing with. Free time is something we engineering students don't have the luxury to afford
With that being said, I truly appreciate what you have done in the development of this phone and how much time you have devoted to doing so. Keep your head high and let the haters hate.
Travisdroidx2 said:
Dragonzkiller you have done so much for this community and our X2. Would you be interested in a 2 month old PERFECT condition Dinc2? At least you would get a phone with official ICS and it actually already does since UKB is using the official kernel from the China released OTA. Its a great phone with great battery life just a smaller screen. You have done so much for us I would be happy to hook you up with a great deal. One I won't be able to tell my wife about lol
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HEY!!! I see what you're trying to do! Quit trying to kang our dev for the Dinc2 community!!!
Language warning! Don't open in front of boss or kids!
http://i.imgur.com/dWZMF.jpg
Related
Even tho I don't have the device and there is not a recovery yet, I am already working hard on a rom for all of you Fascinate people :] Just check back on this post every so often for the release. I will probably release it when Koush releases his recovery for the Fascinate. Pretty much what this is going to do is de-bloat your phone, fully deodex it and other little things here and there. If you want more roms like this for the Fascinate please donate and buy me one here.
Check back here for updates :]
Very cool! Were your other roms froyo?
I have no problem donating to you. I'm just waiting for a recovery to come along first.
Sent while on the go using Tapatalk.
So this rom wont have froyo?
steeeler said:
Very cool! Were your other roms froyo?
I have no problem donating to you. I'm just waiting for a recovery to come along first.
Sent while on the go using Tapatalk.
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Yeah my other roms were froyo. This wont be froyo yet, I am just going to play around with the system folder for the first 2 releases. Then comes the fun :]
Pretty much a second post of your other "please give me money"... Great that you want to develop a ROM but I am sure I'm not the only one to think you are really just fishing for some money (unlike a lot of other ROM developers who do GREAT work without even asking for a dime)
Isn't the whole "pay me now for work later" something we all learned at a young age never worked out well?
Matt, if you want to do something useful, besides shuffle some icons around and rename system files, come help work out the kernel / source compilation issue(s). Once that's done we'll still have to develop the recovery.
There's no point even discussing custom roms without a custom recovery.
Until then, this is like paying full price for a pre-order for a device that hasn't even been announced.
IMO, this thread should be locked at this point.
wstcoaster07 said:
Pretty much a second post of your other "please give me money"... Great that you want to develop a ROM but I am sure I'm not the only one to think you are really just fishing for some money (unlike a lot of other ROM developers who do GREAT work without even asking for a dime)
Isn't the whole "pay me now for work later" something we all learned at a young age never worked out well?
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God damn, I'm not fishing for money. What the hell. Wow....I am trying to work on a rom for when the damn recovery comes out and people are giving me ****? I am trying to help what the hell. Wow.
namebrandon said:
Matt, if you want to do something useful, besides shuffle some icons around and rename system files, come help work out the kernel / source compilation issue(s). Once that's done we'll still have to develop the recovery.
There's no point even discussing custom roms without a custom recovery.
Until then, this is like paying full price for a pre-order for a device that hasn't even been announced.
IMO, this thread should be locked at this point.
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Actually I do a lot more than that so dont be a ass. I am actually going to work on the kernel **** -_- Damn.
wstcoaster07 said:
Pretty much a second post of your other "please give me money"... Great that you want to develop a ROM but I am sure I'm not the only one to think you are really just fishing for some money (unlike a lot of other ROM developers who do GREAT work without even asking for a dime)
Isn't the whole "pay me now for work later" something we all learned at a young age never worked out well?
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Have you even seen his past work? Obviously you haven't, because if you had, you would know Matt is sure to do some great work. It's pretty hard to develop a ROM for a phone he doesn't have though, hence, he's asking for donations.
If you don't have the means to donate that's not a problem - no one is expecting you to of course, but don't give a developer **** because he wants to make this phone better.
Matt4542 said:
Actually I do a lot more than that so dont be a ass. I am actually going to work on the kernel **** -_- Damn.
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I agree cut the man some slack im sure he does great work and he said he would release it AFTER a custom recovery is out. Keep doing what you're doing dont let what some people are saying bother you.
Pandemic187 said:
Have you even seen his past work? Obviously you haven't, because if you had, you would know Matt is sure to do some great work. It's pretty hard to develop a ROM for a phone he doesn't have though, hence, he's asking for donations.
If you don't have the means to donate that's not a problem - no one is expecting you to of course, but don't give a developer **** because he wants to make this phone better.
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I did not mean for this and the other thread to turn into a flame war. I just know that in the android community, a lot of users have been burned by donating to "devs" (chefs) and then the "dev" bails.
The work he has done on the Droid 2 does seem to be good for that phone, and thats what that phone needs. The fascinate though, is a different beast. More power to him if he wants to help. But begging for people to help him buy a phone before we even have a means to install his roms leaves a cheap taste in my mouth.
I want to thank any dev that has interest in developing / cooking up roms for the phone, as people will enjoy their phone more. I just ask that said devs wait for people to finish developing a simple and safe way to install the rom. I released a rom for the fascinate last week that had most of the bloatware removed, but the only way to flash it is by odin, not a preferred / safe way to flash the rom.
Just hold your horses. we will have a recovery soon, and like i said in the other thread, then you can do what you want with your money. But i assure you, we will have a lot in store for the users once that hurdle is passed.
Umm... get donations from the d1 and d2 work that you've already done, buy a Fascinate, create ROMs for that, and THEN (if it's a halfway decent job) people will donate without you even needing to ask them. Why ask people to pay for something that you haven't even done yet but then reassure them it'll happen because of your other work? If what you did with the d1/2 is good then shouldn't you be able to get donations from that? I'm not accusing you of trying to scam people I'm just telling you what seems to make the most sense.
I agree with everyone else why not use the donations from your other devices to get the Fascinate then when you make a rom that is as amazing as you say people will donate and you will come out on top. Yes I have seen your work as I have had several droids and my wife has a droid2. Have you seen Cyanogen's work? Or how about the other cooks? Why should we buy you a phone and not them? I have donated to lots of cooks but never before a product was available and not even a promise of first beta tests or anything, no deadline? Come on, man! Like the other member said would you pay mercedes (we have all seen there work ) money to build a factory on the promise that when it is done being built they will give you a car that may or may not be to your liking. I have to say your other roms werent my taste but they were very good. Having said that I am looking forward to donating once roms are available, nothing personal I have nothing against your screen name which is really all I see it just has to do with my own preference.
On another note I remember when this actually resembled an open source community (i.e. the linux community) I googled your name and every single forum there is something with you asking for donations, I understand you have to call them donations because of the license but lets face it you are selling products. Thats not really what opensource is about.
Sorry for the rant everyone, no hard feelings
erasmogjr said:
I agree with everyone else why not use the donations from your other devices to get the Fascinate then when you make a rom that is as amazing as you say people will donate and you will come out on top. Yes I have seen your work as I have had several droids and my wife has a droid2. Have you seen Cyanogen's work? Or how about the other cooks? Why should we buy you a phone and not them? I have donated to lots of cooks but never before a product was available and not even a promise of first beta tests or anything, no deadline? Come on, man! Like the other member said would you pay mercedes (we have all seen there work ) money to build a factory on the promise that when it is done being built they will give you a car that may or may not be to your liking. I have to say your other roms werent my taste but they were very good. Having said that I am looking forward to donating once roms are available, nothing personal I have nothing against your screen name which is really all I see it just has to do with my own preference.
On another note I remember when this actually resembled an open source community (i.e. the linux community) I googled your name and every single forum there is something with you asking for donations, I understand you have to call them donations because of the license but lets face it you are selling products. Thats not really what opensource is about.
Sorry for the rant everyone, no hard feelings
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Are you serious? I only started asking for donations like a week or two ago and I have been developing roms for a few months.
I'm just excited we're close to seeing some dev work. I wholeheartedly believe in donation as a support system for development. I do not however donate to theory.
I will be throwing some paypal love once I see some good dev work on here.
Matt4542 said:
Are you serious? I only started asking for donations like a week or two ago and I have been developing roms for a few months.
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Matt, Don't take this the wrong way. I do think you're a good and honest developer based on comments i've read on the ROM you've done on Droid. I've been around this forum for a long time and have given my hard earned cash to many worthy developers and others. Donations typically are to support a website, finance a developer for his time, and/or buy hardware needed, etc... This forum has changed a bit in the last decade and some here may not understand how this all works. We do this as either an investment or a reward. Reputation is everything though. And that is why some here are hammering you.
Since you're new to us, if you don't mind, introduce yourself, tell us your skillsets, tell us what you bring to the table? Alot of us are tech heads and would appreciate that.
This website changed once Android became popular. The WinMo community was smaller and calmer. Android has blown everything up.
orateam said:
Matt, Don't take this the wrong way. I do think you're a good and honest developer based on comments i've read on the ROM you've done on Droid. I've been around this forum for a long time and have given my hard earned cash to many worthy developers and others. Donations typically are to support a website, finance a developer for his time, and/or buy hardware needed, etc... This forum has changed a bit in the last decade and some here may not understand how this all works. We do this as either an investment or a reward. Reputation is everything though. And that is why some here are hammering you.
Since you're new to us, if you don't mind, introduce yourself, tell us your skillsets, tell us what you bring to the table? Alot of us are tech heads and would appreciate that.
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ludeboy said:
This website changed once Android became popular. The WinMo community was smaller and calmer. Android has blown everything up.
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eh, i remember a lot of drama going on in the CDMA forums all the time. We had chefs that would rip off of other chefs and claim it as their own just to get more donations / money for their "work"
I have never asked for donations, as the work i do is to better my own phone so why not help everyone else? I just started posting a link to make a donation to world vision in my new posts, because if people are willing to donate, why not have them donate to a great cause?
fallingup said:
I have never asked for donations, as the work i do is to better my own phone so why not help everyone else? I just started posting a link to make a donation to world vision in my new posts, because if people are willing to donate, why not have them donate to a great cause?
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The good ol pocket PC days. Trying to make WinMo 5 act like a reasonable touchscreen interface. I remember using the kitchens to experiment and make my own custom ROM's. We all made windows CE registry tweaks to do all kinds of things. Windows was easier to program for. I had many custom programs that i openly shared directly with users (M$ didn't like us sharing). I hope Android users get that this is simply a labor of love for us hobbyists. If i wanted a phone i wouldn't customize much but had a lot of features, i'd stay with the iPhone. I've been playing with APPDeveloper to get my feet wet, and soon will have some custom programs myself once i get off it and transfer to eclipse coding.
development fascinate
Matt..
How much will it take for you to get a phone to use for development? now that we have a recovery available......
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
good point. Many think rom development is like washing a car..little bit of this little bit of that..dry off. First build the damn car, test to make sure it runs...then wash it..and poeple still tell you the car is dirty!!! sheesh...
I have never personally knocked someone's work, but one problem I see are ROM "chefs". Not only do they know nothing about Android's framework, but don't know any programming language enough to write their own code. They are taking bits and pieces of other peoples work and pasting in, and calling it theirs', and calling it new. Hence the term chef. That really doesn't add anything to the community, it is also unethical in my opinion.
Testified.
PMGRANDS said:
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
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Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk
Sad Panda said:
I have never personally knocked someone's work, but one problem I see are ROM "chefs". Not only do they know nothing about Android's framework, but don't know any programming language enough to write their own code. They are taking bits and pieces of other peoples work and pasting in, and calling it theirs', and calling it new. Hence the term chef. That really doesn't add anything to the community, it is also unethical in my opinion.
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This. Most of the XDA twelve year olds don't know that. The OP of their favorite colored ROM is a god like "developer" to them, when in reality they are just wizards at cut, copy, paste, zip, unzip, ASCII images, ****ty changelogs, etc...
I said most though, not all. And I agree, they all put hard work into it, so appreciate it or just stay quiet and move on.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
Agreed
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
Couldn't agree more.
Sent from my infected Eternity EVO 3D using xda premium
Sad Panda said:
I have never personally knocked someone's work, but one problem I see are ROM "chefs". Not only do they know nothing about Android's framework, but don't know any programming language enough to write their own code. They are taking bits and pieces of other peoples work and pasting in, and calling it theirs', and calling it new. Hence the term chef. That really doesn't add anything to the community, it is also unethical in my opinion.
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I gotta agree with this. There's very little "development" happening, and a lot of "cooking" happening. We need to have two separate sections. One for actual home grown roms, and one for things made in a kitchen.
I don't eat copypasta
I'm okay with some of the cooks as they add another element to let users find more combinations of roms bc not all the ones hard dev'd have everything you want or sometimes you would like to add a certain customization from another rom.
Now as long as proper credit is given in the OP all is good. Android is open source and sharing moss is what its all about. I personally don't think you should even ask to use polar mode long as u give the proper credit to them to begin with.
The issue I have is when people cook a ROM and then give zero credit to anyone claiming they did everything.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
PMGRANDS said:
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
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Well its hard to say good rom to someone if their rom is buggy. We have to post feedback and let them know if there's any bugs. Not to be harsh and say your rom sucks but to say this, this and this doesn't work.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
gmfeny said:
Well its hard to say good rom to someone if their rom is buggy. We have to post feedback and let them know if there's any bugs. Not to be harsh and say your rom sucks but to say this, this and this doesn't work.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
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agree. this is another reason why chefs are kinda annoying. they can't really provide support on a rom because they didnt make it. and with all those things pasted in it's harder to find whats making the problem.
ummm... i haven't seen one thread on here created to specifically slam or complain about a rom.
BUT that being said, i still have seen a lot of complaining about other crap... it gets old. there is no purpose in starting a thread simply to complain. it contributes nothing to anybody else.
crpercodani said:
I don't eat copypasta
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Hahaha
sgt. slaughter said:
I'm okay with some of the cooks as they add another element to let users find more combinations of roms bc not all the ones hard dev'd have everything you want or sometimes you would like to add a certain customization from another rom.
Now as long as proper credit is given in the OP all is good. Android is open source and sharing moss is what its all about. I personally don't think you should even ask to use polar mode long as u give the proper credit to them to begin with.
The issue I have is when people cook a ROM and then give zero credit to anyone claiming they did everything.
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA App
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Yeah, I agree. Open source is fantastic, and frankly as I see it nearly everything should be open source. But like you said just because we develop something and open the source to be read, used, improved, etc does not mean it is at all ok to call it yours, or take my license agreement, or source citing out so you can be the cool developer who took features from 5 roms to give people what they want. That is no different than stealing my patio furniture that is left out and I let other people sit in, ****ing bastards!
The thing with open source, if I can use an analogy to describe my thoughts and personal feelings:
Scientists will study and develop experiments that help prove something or develop a new technological process, or invent something new will keep things to themselves during the initial startup but soon after the entire community knows what they are working on, their journals are made public, their papers are published to be critiqued, reviewed, improved upon. Sources are always made to stay, and credit is given and kept through every part, and every future discovery. If we didn't have this technological advances would be slow as balls.
efan3719 said:
agree. this is another reason why chefs are kinda annoying. they can't really provide support on a rom because they didnt make it. and with all those things pasted in it's harder to find whats making the problem.
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Another perfect point. How do you support and fix bugs if it isn't yours and have no idea what you are doing?
cobraboy85 said:
ummm... i haven't seen one thread on here created to specifically slam or complain about a rom.
BUT that being said, i still have seen a lot of complaining about other crap... it gets old. there is no purpose in starting a thread simply to complain. it contributes nothing to anybody else.
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Thats what I Meant...
Not that people actually start a Thread to Bash a ROM, but they Might as Well after Reading there Posts! Lol...
crpercodani said:
I don't eat copypasta
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Avatar makes the post...
PMGRANDS said:
No Offense to Anyone in particular but I've been seeing Alot of threads Knocking Developers Roms... Now in My Opinion the Only way Anyone has the Right to say Anything is... If you can Cook your Own Rom up! Until then, Give them a Break guys there doing it for Free for Everyone to use!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't kid yourself. All it takes is roughly 20 minutes to set up and build your first ROM. It requires no skill, no college degree, and no unearthly talent. Virtually anyone could do it.
While it does take a bit more knowledge to port things over, the end result is always lackluster and very much lacks in the "I_need_a_working_stable_phone_where_all_things_included_with_it_actually_work_as_described" category. There's nothing more annoying than needing your phone at a particular time only to discover that one of a few things are happening:
-your phone has managed to lock up
-your phone is in the middle of a random reboot
-your phone has a missing feature that doesn't work because of the ROM you're using
I suppose all the ridiculous disclaimers (who's seriously going to go after a person for not having one?) try and warn you, but the cute taglines trump the disclaimer anyway.
There are few development projects going on. However, there are plenty of "let me try and frankenROM a bunch of crap together, throw it into a cute thread with a tagline indicating that it's a work in progress and that there are nightlies."
Judging by the number of replies these threads get, you can deduct the following:
-the average person on XDA doesn't have a smartphone for it to work properly.
-the average person on XDA enjoys interacting with other people on a thread even though it's mainly a bunch of back and forth replies that are limited to such wording as "yeah, ___ is broken for me too", " _insert_app_here doesn't work properly and fcs a lot"
I don't know about you, but I'm not the average XDA person and I most definitely enjoy having a working phone, so with that said--Stock ROM with modifications is all that's required to satisfy me.
To be honest, there isn't anything exciting going on aside from chad's kernel development.
This is not directed at any one person, and the true developers know that this isn't about them. Quite frankly, we need this type of work going on because it pushes the envelope and tells companies like HTC that we won't settle for less and know damn well that it's possible to push our phones further than they would have us think. Which is why sometimes, HTC gets caught with their pants down and are forced to give in. EVO 4G fps fix anyone? So I do appreciate all types of work that goes on here at XDA. But there will always be a small percentage that are in it for the internet fame (and they seem to get it quite frequently) and really bring nothing to the table except a bringing together of various other people's works.
freeza said:
Don't kid yourself. All it takes is roughly 20 minutes to set up and build your first ROM. It requires no skill, no college degree, and no unearthly talent. Virtually anyone could do it.
While it does take a bit more knowledge to port things over, the end result is always lackluster and very much lacks in the "I_need_a_working_stable_phone_where_all_things_included_with_it_actually_work_as_described" category. There's nothing more annoying than needing your phone at a particular time only to discover that one of a few things are happening:
-your phone has managed to lock up
-your phone is in the middle of a random reboot
-your phone has a missing feature that doesn't work because of the ROM you're using
I suppose all the ridiculous disclaimers (who's seriously going to go after a person for not having one?) try and warn you, but the cute taglines trump the disclaimer anyway.
There are few development projects going on. However, there are plenty of "let me try and frankenROM a bunch of crap together, throw it into a cute thread with a tagline indicating that it's a work in progress and that there are nightlies."
Judging by the number of replies these threads get, you can deduct the following:
-the average person on XDA doesn't have a smartphone for it to work properly.
-the average person on XDA enjoys interacting with other people on a thread even though it's mainly a bunch of back and forth replies that are limited to such wording as "yeah, ___ is broken for me too", " _insert_app_here doesn't work properly and fcs a lot"
I don't know about you, but I'm not the average XDA person and I most definitely enjoy having a working phone, so with that said--Stock ROM with modifications is all that's required to satisfy me.
To be honest, there isn't anything exciting going on aside from chad's kernel development.
This is not directed at any one person, and the true developers know that this isn't about them. Quite frankly, we need this type of work going on because it pushes the envelope and tells companies like HTC that we won't settle for less and know damn well that it's possible to push our phones further than they would have us think. Which is why sometimes, HTC gets caught with their pants down and are forced to give in. EVO 4G fps fix anyone? So I do appreciate all types of work that goes on here at XDA. But there will always be a small percentage that are in it for the internet fame (and they seem to get it quite frequently) and really bring nothing to the table except a bringing together of various other people's works.
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Testify!!!!!
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
I might just take a break all this drama stuff is like high school and post my stuff else where or keep it until its ready
adslee said:
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
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Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
xboarder56 said:
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
Silentbtdeadly said:
Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
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nope i got a group all ready working with privatly on this
I don't know much about what's going on behind the (Devs) scene - things between Xboarder56 and CM team, between Xboarder56 and Revolution but based on the facts that I've seen, Xboarder56 did a wonderful job. All the noob tools, Roms - especially his supports. He updates his Rom immediately after someone found a bug, heck, he was so fast at supporting and updating that I am - as an end user, seems to be tired to trying to keep up with his releases.
Based on what I've read in the forum, Revolution is an a**hole - period! And if I were a Mod he would be forever banned due to the fact of kept asking ETA alone - not to mention the bad intention to provoked Xboarder56.
There is a mutual benefits between Dev and end users. If you are a good Dev with a lot of followers, you will become popular and that will helps with your career (i.e Steve Kondik and Samsung). Devs built Rom not just for fun, they also built up their porfolio/resume if they wanted a good job in hi-tech field and a good reputation when putting their app on the Market.
On a personal point of view, I don't care if there is only one Dev in the Amaze forum because without many of them I still be able to get ICS when it's due from Tmobile. Flashing custom Rom is more like a hobby to many of us here and if I don't have their support I still be fine with my phone - using Stock
Another thing needs to be point out and one may not agreed with me but a Stock Rom is always better than any custom Rom. I means looks at Motorola's announcement just a few days ago when they are looking for testers for their soon to be update software, they are looking for one thousand tester and when a Mfg. released their final product, they usually testing it for months before.
As with us? Every time when we flashed a new Rom we tend to check on some basic function as wifi, tethering, bluetooth, gps and stuff like that and we were testing it for a few minutes - until it crashed or bootloop a day later. We rarely have a chance a test the Rom while doing multi-task with hundreds of apps on different environtments, i.g using GPS while listening to Music on a trip and taking/receiving phone calls while another party on hold at the other end and at the same time googling for a nearby restaurant, ect ... How many of us doing such intensive test on our beloved new Rom for a long period of time? I'm doubtful.
To top it off. More Devs? Great! I appreciates their effort and I am thankful. I will consider a donation if I think the Dev is devoting to his work and fully support his followers and deserved his rewards. If there is none? I either continuing using my phone with Stock and after a few months, Ebaying it or throw it on my local Craigslist and buy another phone - happily ever after! If there is a single Dev out there thinking that us users would have no where to go to without their work. They are wrong!
Mutual beneficial is the name of this game. Without users and testers - Dev is nothing but a desperate wannabe tech-guy looking for a job without a good looking porfolio/resume. No chance to practice and/or testing your product. Without Devs, users would have no fun and his phone purchasing cycle will be shorter hence carriers and Mfg. can sell more phones! That's about it!
Enough ranting and my appologies for those who hates long post.
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Thanks! It's difficult to find balance between the forum and my personal life but I do what I can. Also keep in mind that I moderate more forums here on XDA at the same time as do a lot of forum moderators. So if you don't see them in other forums frequently then use the report post feature and report the thread. Your FSM will be alerted to investigate the reported issue.
sunlaw2 said:
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Umm....shouldn't the ref call the foul on the guy who actually committed the foul in the first place? Just sayin.
Silentbtdeadly said:
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
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Click to collapse
I totally see where you are coming from. In reality their are people who will intentionally get under you skin any way they can. Even as an adult it still happens. But if theirs anything that I learned in flight school its that you can run into the wind you have to turn into and face it. The thing you push against lifts you up. Team work is crucial in any thing you do really. That's what being a community is about, working together not being divided. I have seen the things revolution has done and in reality he is one of the ones who won't go far. I mean all of this out of respect, but with a device so scares but great that is a reason we should help on another. If HTC won't help then it looks like its up to us. We need to work together and stop being a pain in the ass toward one another. Like I said I'm not blaming anyone its all out of respect.
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Click to collapse
500thanks out of 1500total posts meaning 67% of the time he talks bullsh$t
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using xda premium
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Click to collapse
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
Silentbtdeadly said:
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
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Click to collapse
Thread closed per OP request.
Ok so I have lurked for a long time on the forums, commented here and there. I felt compelled to write this today because lately I have seen a lot of posts complaining that we don't have any working ROM's and several issues that are making people turn away from this great device. Let me start by saying that I work in the IT industry and tinkering with things that are not 100% functional in order to make them into something reliable comes second nature, it gives me a sense of satisfaction to know that I took something that was almost functional and turned it into something Amazing. I don't like to ask, I prefer to search on my own. The reason being that once I do fix it I have a better understanding of what needs to be done in order to make things work and makes the phone that much more enjoyable. The Dev's that work on this phone obviously have better things to do than work on a phone all day, and they are kind enough to provide us with something of a canvas which we than can turn into an expression of ourselves (cheesy I know) no they will not be perfect but they are damn close for me. Is this phone flawed, yes it is, would I like to own the latest and greatest piece of hardware out there (SGS3) of course. But at the moment with my wife in school and a 3 year old I am lucky to have the Amaze so believe me I will do anything to make it work, but it takes effort from the end user. Once you root your device it's an uphill battle every day a different Rom, kernel, permission that need to be set apps that need to be pushed, features that need to be added, themes that need to be flashed. But this is the beauty of Android that you can make it what you want and you can go as far as you are willing with it. Either way glad I could get this off my chest, have fun and flash away.
yespinosa said:
Ok so I have lurked for a long time on the forums, commented here and there. I felt compelled to write this today because lately I have seen a lot of posts complaining that we don't have any working ROM's and several issues that are making people turn away from this great device. Let me start by saying that I work in the IT industry and tinkering with things that are not 100% functional in order to make them into something reliable comes second nature, it gives me a sense of satisfaction to know that I took something that was almost functional and turned it into something Amazing. I don't like to ask, I prefer to search on my own. The reason being that once I do fix it I have a better understanding of what needs to be done in order to make things work and makes the phone that much more enjoyable. The Dev's that work on this phone obviously have better things to do than work on a phone all day, and they are kind enough to provide us with something of a canvas which we than can turn into an expression of ourselves (cheesy I know) no they will not be perfect but they are damn close for me. Is this phone flawed, yes it is, would I like to own the latest and greatest piece of hardware out there (SGS3) of course. But at the moment with my wife in school and a 3 year old I am lucky to have the Amaze so believe me I will do anything to make it work, but it takes effort from the end user. Once you root your device it's an uphill battle every day a different Rom, kernel, permission that need to be set apps that need to be pushed, features that need to be added, themes that need to be flashed. But this is the beauty of Android that you can make it what you want and you can go as far as you are willing with it. Either way glad I could get this off my chest, have fun and flash away.[/QUOT
Amen!
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Click to collapse
yespinosa said:
Ok so I have lurked for a long time on the forums, commented here and there. I felt compelled to write this today because lately I have seen a lot of posts complaining that we don't have any working ROM's and several issues that are making people turn away from this great device. Let me start by saying that I work in the IT industry and tinkering with things that are not 100% functional in order to make them into something reliable comes second nature, it gives me a sense of satisfaction to know that I took something that was almost functional and turned it into something Amazing. I don't like to ask, I prefer to search on my own. The reason being that once I do fix it I have a better understanding of what needs to be done in order to make things work and makes the phone that much more enjoyable. The Dev's that work on this phone obviously have better things to do than work on a phone all day, and they are kind enough to provide us with something of a canvas which we than can turn into an expression of ourselves (cheesy I know) no they will not be perfect but they are damn close for me. Is this phone flawed, yes it is, would I like to own the latest and greatest piece of hardware out there (SGS3) of course. But at the moment with my wife in school and a 3 year old I am lucky to have the Amaze so believe me I will do anything to make it work, but it takes effort from the end user. Once you root your device it's an uphill battle every day a different Rom, kernel, permission that need to be set apps that need to be pushed, features that need to be added, themes that need to be flashed. But this is the beauty of Android that you can make it what you want and you can go as far as you are willing with it. Either way glad I could get this off my chest, have fun and flash away.
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Click to collapse
Well stated.:thumbup:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Didn't we go to different schools together?...Coffee Bean!
Sent from my HTC One X, using XDA Premium.
BRAVO...someone who get's it!!! I hate getting emails that always have the following in response to a suscribed thread...
"Does data work yet, how long does it take to boot, how do I install this, why did GlacierGuy get rid of his Amaze "
Just a quick note of thanks to OaT for his superior builds and the sadness he's now discontinued them .
I was first in line of the hungry hoards who insatiably devoured every mouthwatering release - from LnT_Beats to Linaro experimental builds, and to my shame never got a word of thanks or feedback out to the master chef! Unfortunately this pattern of general behaviour I believe contributed to the demise of this coveted build.
I tried a number of times to feedback on OaT's threads but was blocked by forum rules (hadn't hit the 10 x post threshold) and frustrated by this it was easy not to make the effort and feedback on this fine ROM. Apologies for this!
Nevertheless, OaT releases won't be forgotten, and my sincere thanks for his superb efforts on a thoroughly enjoyable and expert release.
Cheers,
P
I'm going to get eaten alive for saying this, but I think the whole quitting due to not receiving thanks was a bit childish... He knew people liked his ROM, mostly by the number of people he knew downloaded his ROM... If he wanted to quit for personal reasons then whatever, that's all good, it's his life. Just, I don't really get the importance of a thank you button on a message board.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Certain people just get a rush out of being able to show other devs how many "thanks" they have. It's the same as like-whores on facebook.
He wanted feedback on the ROM as well, not just thanks.
bananagranola said:
He wanted feedback on the ROM as well, not just thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What bananagranola just said is the biggest reason the man pulled the ROM.... Just as most users here are too lazy to search before asking questions... they're too lazy to fulfill the development request for feedback so he can make the ROM that THEY like using better... and those same people whining about the links being pulled are the same ones that conveniently forget to remember that's why he pulled links... not for the THANKS but for THEIR lack of ability to provide a simple request
For anyone with several devices can see... this is happening all over xda... the devs are tiring of the leeches that download and then simply whine and complain when things aren't all roses with their devices
Sent from my AOKP M6 TouchPad using TapaTalk 2
cdzo72 said:
What bananagranola just said is the biggest reason the man pulled the ROM.... Just as most users here are too lazy to search before asking questions... they're too lazy to fulfill the development request for feedback so he can make the ROM that THEY like using better... and those same people whining about the links being pulled are the same ones that conveniently forget to remember that's why he pulled links... not for the THANKS but for THEIR lack of ability to provide a simple request
For anyone with several devices can see... this is happening all over xda... the devs are tiring of the leeches that download and then simply whine and complain when things aren't all roses with their devices
Sent from my AOKP M6 TouchPad using TapaTalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I said my thanks, and never complained. I didn't provide much feedback, because to me, it just felt like complaining and I knew I didn't have that right. Oh well, water under the bridge now... RIP touchpad for now. These days remind me of when bumblebee stopped supporting lg v500. Development died for months and I ended up selling the thing due to it.
Sent from my aokp_tenderloin using xda app-developers app
If this thread turns into a big arguing pit, I'll close this too. Please keep your posts civil and don't start arguments.
Noellenchris
Is the TP on its last Android leg?
It doesn't bear discussion as to the "why" OaT took down the ROM. It was a personal decision made by an individual for whatever rationale he/she determined was in their best interest to have a happy life. I have to respect that if I want others to respect my discussion and decisions as well. Many thanks for the time and effort that OaT put forward, but I'm not sure where to go from here.
The TouchPad isn't going to move forward. It's a static technology that HP as a manufacturer isn't going to come back to. At least not in its current incarnation. HP is coming back to the tablet world - just not at this moment, and not with WebOS. If you read the news, HP will be back in this space with Win 8 and tablets in the future.
Tech doesn't stand still, and as people's interests change on a non-standard / open sourced product - it's lifecycle is only determined by the people able to move it forward, and the demand people are placing on a limited supply item.
Reading the writing on the walls, the HP TouchPad is reaching the end of its (Android) life - for better or worse. Now it's up to those of us who own the TouchPad to determine just how long to hang onto it before moving on. Do you settle on a latest release of CM9, or hope that someone pushes CM10 forward and gets audio, HD video and all the other bells and whistles to the point of CM9? (Let's just all assume the camera is the great white whale for devs.)
It's only after the death of an artist that the world mourns their contributions. With OaT dropping out - I don't know where to put my focus. I don't know which devs are still around working diligently on CM10 versus the crew working on CM9.
--McBean
bananagranola said:
He wanted feedback on the ROM as well, not just thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
cdzo72 said:
What bananagranola just said is the biggest reason the man pulled the ROM.... Just as most users here are too lazy to search before asking questions... they're too lazy to fulfill the development request for feedback so he can make the ROM that THEY like using better... and those same people whining about the links being pulled are the same ones that conveniently forget to remember that's why he pulled links... not for the THANKS but for THEIR lack of ability to provide a simple request
For anyone with several devices can see... this is happening all over xda... the devs are tiring of the leeches that download and then simply whine and complain when things aren't all roses with their devices
Sent from my AOKP M6 TouchPad using TapaTalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll try to make it official and clear here. The primary reason for me discontinuing development and pulling the links was the lack of feedback on the new Beats Audio in the new LnTBA. I don't have the hifi sound equipment to test that, and with 60 year old ears that are only able to hear middle range sounds, I'm not sure even if I did I would be able to tell if the new BA was an improvement or not.
The lack of feedback when specifically asked for, even initially when I asked for testers when I began to consider publishing the ROM, has been a real disappointment. In fact I initially expanded my testers list from ~20 to ~40 because of people asking me to 'please' let them test and 'promising' feedback. In the end I got at most a handful of thoughtful responses.
So in this last round where I requested feedback on LnTBA, I set the bar pretty low the day I posted it; I told myself if I only got 1 response when the download count reached 100 or more that would be enough, understanding that not everyone flashes as soon as they download. Ultimately there were ~250 downloads of LnTBA within ~24 hours of it being posted. Still, there was not one response, "none, zero, nada"!
In regards to the lack of folks hitting the "thanks" button, it should be obvious that if that were the real reason to discontinue development I would have stopped publishing the ROMs long ago.
Let me end on a somewhat positive note saying I do not know if or when I will restart publishing, after all the thread says "discontinued" and not for example "abandoned" in the CM sense. But rest assured development on my end for TPad is certainly still continuing. In fact I had the first bit of progress on sound for JB last night/today.
O.a.T. said:
Let me end on a somewhat positive note saying I do not know if or when I will restart publishing, after all the thread says "discontinued" and not for example "abandoned" in the CM sense. But rest assured development on my end for TPad is certainly still continuing. In fact I had the first bit of progress on sound for JB last night/today.
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Click to collapse
OaT, that's awesome!
I do respect your decision to pull your ROMs due to lack of feedback. It goes back to something I say almost every day... If I don't know there's a problem, I can't fix it. I'm trying to get my 10 posts in so, hopefully, when/if you do make another release, I am able to provide input in the dev forum.
O.a.T. said:
I'll try to make it official and clear here. The primary reason for me discontinuing development and pulling the links was the lack of feedback on the new Beats Audio in the new LnTBA. I don't have the hifi sound equipment to test that, and with 60 year old ears that are only able to hear middle range sounds, I'm not sure even if I did I would be able to tell if the new BA was an improvement or not.
The lack of feedback when specifically asked for, even initially when I asked for testers when I began to consider publishing the ROM, has been a real disappointment. In fact I initially expanded my testers list from ~20 to ~40 because of people asking me to 'please' let them test and 'promising' feedback. In the end I got at most a handful of thoughtful responses.
So in this last round where I requested feedback on LnTBA, I set the bar pretty low the day I posted it; I told myself if I only got 1 response when the download count reached 100 or more that would be enough, understanding that not everyone flashes as soon as they download. Ultimately there were ~250 downloads of LnTBA within ~24 hours of it being posted. Still, there was not one response, "none, zero, nada"!
In regards to the lack of folks hitting the "thanks" button, it should be obvious that if that were the real reason to discontinue development I would have stopped publishing the ROMs long ago.
Let me end on a somewhat positive note saying I do not know if or when I will restart publishing, after all the thread says "discontinued" and not for example "abandoned" in the CM sense. But rest assured development on my end for TPad is certainly still continuing. In fact I had the first bit of progress on sound for JB last night/today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is unbelievably great news. Many people like your Roms and have great experiances with them. As you said I don't flash right away. i dont have alot of time to play with my touchpad so when I get around to it, all the issues that I have seen are usually already posted. Plus I'm not a heavy user of so I dont see many of the issues.
As far as Beats Audio, I've only flashed it on my LG revolution and it made it worse. Otherwise if a Rom has it in it for the touchpad I haven't noticed. I also don't use audio that much. I'm basically explaining that I do like your ROMs but i think my feedback might not make an impact.
OaT the TP God
O.a.T. said:
I'll try to make it official and clear here. The primary reason for me discontinuing development and pulling the links was the lack of feedback on the new Beats Audio in the new LnTBA. I don't have the hifi sound equipment to test that, and with 60 year old ears that are only able to hear middle range sounds, I'm not sure even if I did I would be able to tell if the new BA was an improvement or not.
The lack of feedback when specifically asked for, even initially when I asked for testers when I began to consider publishing the ROM, has been a real disappointment. In fact I initially expanded my testers list from ~20 to ~40 because of people asking me to 'please' let them test and 'promising' feedback. In the end I got at most a handful of thoughtful responses.
So in this last round where I requested feedback on LnTBA, I set the bar pretty low the day I posted it; I told myself if I only got 1 response when the download count reached 100 or more that would be enough, understanding that not everyone flashes as soon as they download. Ultimately there were ~250 downloads of LnTBA within ~24 hours of it being posted. Still, there was not one response, "none, zero, nada"!
In regards to the lack of folks hitting the "thanks" button, it should be obvious that if that were the real reason to discontinue development I would have stopped publishing the ROMs long ago.
Let me end on a somewhat positive note saying I do not know if or when I will restart publishing, after all the thread says "discontinued" and not for example "abandoned" in the CM sense. But rest assured development on my end for TPad is certainly still continuing. In fact I had the first bit of progress on sound for JB last night/today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OaT,
I was out of town during that release (in Alaska, no internet), and I don't use BA at all, ever. I think it's a gimmick. I will say that your 829 build is amazing, and probably the best OS I have used on any tablet ever.
I don't agree with your decision to pull all your roms. It IS your decision, but I know hundreds of TP users out there (most probably lurkers that don't even post on XDA) have benefited from your superior roms, and it seems like helping people in the future (or even just currently) would be the "right" thing to do.
Thank you for:
A) Your roms
B) The explanation of your sudden disappearance
C) Giving us some hope for the future
D) Continuing your development
I can understand your frustrations about testers. Doing a bunch of work and not getting feedback can be a real drag. I'll try to be more vocal in the future. Hell, I'll start right now.
The 829 build is GREAT. The battery lasts forever. I have been getting occasional FCs here and there, in particular the holo launcher is DOA on this build. Apex works great (as usual), I don't really like GO launcher. I think it's kind of a mess. This is my daily driver now because the battery is so much better than the 819 JB build. Google Now voice input doesn't work at all for me (using OaT gapps 429). The rest of Google Now works great.
Feel free to let me know if you need more testing with something specific, but don't expect it too quickly. I'm married, new baby, play in a band, and have a full time IT job. I will get to it late at night on Thursdays or Sunday afternoon though, if I can.
Rhy
I for one am guilty as charged in the "no feedback" issue, my bad. I've used and enjoyed your roms and most definitely should have participated in helping squash the bugs. Sorry buddy. On another note though, the stupid rom is just so damn solid I really had nothing to say I would kinda feel like a whiner if I mentioned the occasional fc. I am still amazed that this old webos tablet can even run android, let alone run it well.
Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
ItsDon said:
I for one am guilty as charged in the "no feedback" issue, my bad. I've used and enjoyed your roms and most definitely should have participated in helping squash the bugs. Sorry buddy. On another note though, the stupid rom is just so damn solid I really had nothing to say I would kinda feel like a whiner if I mentioned the occasional fc. I am still amazed that this old webos tablet can even run android, let alone run it well.
Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
Have to echo ItsDon. I don't feedback much either because the thing works so damn well. Thanks again OaT.
OaT, your ROM is the best.
Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk 2
As for me, I am a newb for xda, not a lurker, and couldn't post feedback on the dev section til I got the requirements done. Something like that.
Sent from my YP-G70 using xda app-developers app
hanjosep said:
As for me, I am a newb for xda, not a lurker, and couldn't post feedback on the dev section til I got the requirements done. Something like that.
Sent from my YP-G70 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I. for one, could not leave feedback because I didn't have enough posts. They should remove this requirement from the forum because I think many people can't leave feedback because of this requirement. Some people (including myself) don't like posting random comments to increase their posts and want to get to the point.
Regardless, thanks for everything you've done so far OaT.
Sad to see that on a weekend when I don't check up on OAT thread I miss out on an update. As far as beats feedback goes off the top of my head I ran with the beats build of 7/06 and 7/29. Before that I ran the standard version of 6/03. On a whim I switched over to the non beats version of 7/29 and never looked back. I believe I stuck to the standard version of 7/29 because overall audio clarity seemed to be better on the standard. Easiest way for me to say that is at equal volume the standard seemed louder? Again this was from memory, the testing was conducting in the best setting, and I wasn't trying that hard. In all honesty I think what I was trying to see if there would be a significant difference between the two and if there was I would keep my preferred version. Since I'm running the 7/29 non beats still I assume I found no significant difference. I would like to add that I found no difference even in webos with beats on or off.
This is too little too late, but this has been my personal experience. I used Audio Technica CKS77 iems. Thank you for all you have done OAT, your light n tasty philosophy was something I really appreciated when I was looking at roms and was what made pick your rom first. I never bothered to try the rest
Legion021 said:
I. for one, could not leave feedback because I didn't have enough posts. They should remove this requirement from the forum because I think many people can't leave feedback because of this requirement. Some people (including myself) don't like posting random comments to increase their posts and want to get to the point.
Regardless, thanks for everything you've done so far OaT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I second that. And the "thanks" button does not show until you make your first post. I went crazy trying to find it.
It's just sad that I never cared for oat's roms until now that he disappeared. I also don't think it's fair that a small portion of people were able to download the latest build and others were not. In case someone has the latest build and it didn't break any rules and disrespect the developer then please share.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2