I received the below e-mail today. I did not appreciate being contacted out of the blue via e-mail; if you feel the need to contact me, use XDA's tagging feature. With that said, I thought I'd reply in public with my thoughts on the matter, hoping to drive a constructive conversation about Verizon Wireless' restrictions for devices on their network. My initial response is in post 2.
Please, think through your responses before posting. Make sure they ADD to the conversation.
What do you think of having everyone from XDA and the CM community using the DINC 4G LTE file Better Business Bureau complaints against verizon? It made a business decision not to give us updates, and has deliberately removed the DINC 4g from the HTC Unlock program. They shouldn't be allowed to abandon the platform and to remove unlocking ability that was there.
BBB asks them to respond within 14 days. [edit: link removed]
or have you already tried this route?
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I will leave it up to the writer of the e-mail if he/she would like to make himself/herself known here.
Can you point to a single advertisement by either HTC or Verizon that the Droid Incredible 4G LTE would ever be included in HTCDev's unlocked bootloader program? Even HTC's generic advertisements include disclaimers that some devices may not be included due to various restrictions (the most obvious being carrier refusal). HTC can justify the ability to unlock the bootloader pre-public availability as a means to let developers directly related to software development and quality assurance alter the ROM before release. To a handful of end users who get the device in the early days of release, they get to sneak in and use the unlocker under the "Other devices" category of the program. I suspect we owe HTC a thank you for dragging their feet for a week before disabling the unlock ability for this (and several other) device(s). There is no legitimate complaint that can be filed towards Verizon concerning this matter since they never advertised this as an available feature.
On the topic of abandoning the platform, software-wise, the last available software update for the Incredible 4G still works with reasonable stability and all advertised features are enabled. It is natural for technology devices to age and need replacement; a balance has to be struck between user content or disdain and extent of support. Verizon has apparently deemed there will be very little blowback by prematurely ending software updates. Considering the number of users I see in the XDA forum section for this phone, I'd guess they're right. About the only sticking point that could be leveraged to force a software update out of Verizon is if there are security vulnerabilities that are either being actively exploited or pose a real threat of being exploited in the near future.
Succinctly, we are at the mercy of Verizon's "generosity" concerning extended functionality of, and software updates for, the phones on their network. With these thoughts, I believe we can only ask them to help us out... with reason, anger, begging, or whatever tactic you find most influential. I don't think we can force their hand.
Your thoughts XDAers?
I agree with mdmower. Having come from the OG Droid, I had zero expectation for HTC or Verizon to let me unlock the phone. While I did not expect this phone to be the left-handed, red-haired step-child twice removed orphan of Verizon, it is a great phone with a 4" screen. The size is good (still prefer OG Droid) and the processor and internet speeds are great. I personally am quite content with this phone. We have been blessed with some extremely talented developers and supporters who have
Developed a method to unlock despite HTC/Verizon
Developed two methods for s-off:
DirtyRacun - IMHO, unlimited.io did a great job
FacePalm - Haven't tried, but looks great
Two great recoveries:
Official CWM Recovery, Plus PhilZ
TWRP Recovery
Developed an Incredible Rock Solid Sense ROM in ViperLTE
Developed a solid, official CyanogenMod ROM .
There are probably more, but those are just off of the top of my head. I am also still seeing great ongoing development work for ROMs for this phone. Sure, this phone doesn't have the plethora of ROMs that the OG Droid, Dinc2, Rezound, or [insert model here], but what we do have is solid.
I'm not exactly sure what Verizon owes us. We have a great phone with a great 4GLTE network (at least in my area). It should also be noted that Verizon actually put out an OTA for the OG Dinc around 2+ years after its release with "Improvements and fixes". I would expect the same for this phone as well. I too believe that threats, anger, etc. will not do anything more than generate ill will.
Just my $0.03.
P.S. Why do we still care if there is an "official" bootloader unlock? As mentioned above, we have a proved method to unlock bootloader and/or gain s-off. Even HTC's site says that unlocking bootloader through their "official" site may void your warranty.
HTC Dev said:
Please understand that you will not be able to return your device to the original state and going forward your device may not be held covered under the warranty for all claims resulting from the unlocking of the bootloader. HTC bears no responsibility if your device is no longer usable afterwards.
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The only thing to take away from this is to avoid Verizon and HTC. They may not owe us anything more than we received, but they are clearly sub-par companies compared to others. Unfortunately, I can't ditch Verizon just now because I'm on a shared plan, but I will never buy an HTC phone again.
junkmail9 said:
I agree with mdmower. Having come from the OG Droid, I had zero expectation for HTC or Verizon to let me unlock the phone....
P.S. Why do we still care if there is an "official" bootloader unlock?
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Just to clarify, I'm not content with the support Verizon has offered for this phone, I just realize that we cannot expect them to continue support. I am still not sure about the best avenues of communication with Verizon Wireless, so in a feeble attempt to get their attention, I write a short #openletter on G+.
A far as the official bootloader unlock, it is a little important. An example is the recently advertised CM installer (by the way, I do not have any insider knowledge about CM Inc.). The installer will almost surely be available only to devices with legitimate unlock ability. While the fireball is pretty much "a bit"-out-of-luck even if it did get official unlock, due to the inability to flash the boot partition while in recovery, at some point users need to convince Verizon Wireless to allow unlocked bootloaders for phones on their network. This is especially relevant to the many, many users who are wise enough to not tinker with their phones because of lack of knowledge. They deserve the opportunity to safely replace the legacy operating system on their phone, and this will only be possible if the carrier and manufacturer allow it.
The open letter seems pointless, besides maybe allowing other people to see and take note that Verizon ignores certain customers. As far as our phone though, no point really. Anyone you reach through G+, Facebook, Twitter, Verizon's customer service contacts, etc. will have no real power to do anything. They just give the typical "sorry, we're doing our best" garbage. The message never reaches anyone important enough to actually do anything. The only way a message may get to them is if the user base is very large, but even if we all wrote to them everyday it wouldn't help. Not enough people for them to care. As you said, we're at their mercy. Just have to wait.
mdmower said:
A far as the official bootloader unlock, it is a little important. An example is the recently advertised CM installer (by the way, I do not have any insider knowledge about CM Inc.). The installer will almost surely be available only to devices with legitimate unlock ability. While the fireball is pretty much "a bit"-out-of-luck even if it did get official unlock, due to the inability to flash the boot partition while in recovery, at some point users need to convince Verizon Wireless to allow unlocked bootloaders for phones on their network. This is especially relevant to the many, many users who are wise enough to not tinker with their phones because of lack of knowledge. They deserve the opportunity to safely replace the legacy operating system on their phone, and this will only be possible if the carrier and manufacturer allow it.
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This is an excellent point I had not considered. I was not thinking about the larger issue, (nor am I savvy with the upcoming CM installer). Unfortunately, I have run into a few companies that have seriously dummied down their products because, as one tech support person told me, "some users may have a problem with the advanced features so we removed them." While I can try and understand that point, it was really frustrating because some advanced features I had come to rely on were removed in the product upgrade. Simply because some people could not comprehend how to use it properly? Is Verizon trying to protect us from ourselves, dummy down the phones for "the uneducated masses," or simply trying to force their customers to live with Verizon-installed bloatware?
Okay I have My own say to this.!
Okay so I left AT&T network when I owned the HTC Inspire 4g and moved on to Verizon because there service was better in my area and I purchased the HTC Droid Incredible 4G LTE as my first phone with Verizon, I came to like the phone because it was fast, snappy, and good on battery....... But I constantly waited for update to jellybean ( Sense 4+ ) which in reality would make the device more efficient and smoother than it was on Ice Cream Sandwich... And finally I heard the news that we were going to get an update to jellybean in the beginning of 2013.. But after so much time of waiting I finally gave up hope and said ***k the device and went back to AT&T...... and bought the HTC One XL because it recieved updates to sense 5. The device is like an older sibling to the inc4g with close to the same specs. I sold the Incredible 4g because I hated the lack of support for this device... The only good thing going for it was CM10 and the amazing sense kernel. This community deserves more than what has been given to them so far... So my question is why Verizon drop support for us.???? If this community received jelly bean j defiantly would sell my XL and come back to this community......
This is my only my concern.
Sincerely,
24ky
Sent from my HTC One XL using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Here is a weird thought. let your money do the talking. leave Verizon. if enough of us leave we dont need to "change their minds". i brought this up in an HTC elevate detection not to long ago ( also how come htc bent over backwards because verizon wanted the bootload unlock for the ONE removed). instead of open letters or angry tweets and emails, just take your money to someone that appreciates you as a customer? put your money into a company that understands the development community and is willing to support you. how do you think verizon got so good? the used to listen to their customers. now that they are self sustaining they dont need to listen to us anymore. but i bet if their wallet was hit the would. they would bring back unlimited data, remove the block of google wallet, ect....
You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that does great work but also makes you spend $$ money on things that don't need to be fixed.
my $.02
synisterwolf said:
Here is a weird thought. let your money do the talking. leave Verizon. if enough of us leave we dont need to "change their minds" i brought this up in an HTC elevate detection not to long ago. instead of open letters or angry tweets, just take your money to someone that appreciates you as a customer? put your money into a company that understands the development community and is willing to support you.
You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that does great work but also makes you spend $$ money on things that don't need to be fixed.
my $.02
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This is my point from before. This is the only thing you can really do. I wish I could dump Verizon right now, but I can't. For now I'll just settle for never buying HTC again.
somerandomname1 said:
This is my point from before. This is the only thing you can really do. I wish I could dump Verizon right now, but I can't. For now I'll just settle for never buying HTC again.
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this too. maybe if HTC where to step in and help us it would be different.
OP not trying to troll or anything or start a war. i just wanted to get that out their. we do have an option to take our money somewhere else. or at least when this contract is over. ive said it before, i need unlimited data. i dont have wifi anywhere i work and im barely at home so if i have to give up my data plan i will give up my business too. im going to miss there unbeatable coverage but i cant stand to be hit in the balls over and over again with a smile on their face. :/
mdmower said:
I received the below e-mail today. I did not appreciate being contacted out of the blue via e-mail; if you feel the need to contact me, use XDA's tagging feature. With that said, I thought I'd reply in public with my thoughts on the matter, hoping to drive a constructive conversation about Verizon Wireless' restrictions for devices on their network. My initial response is in post 2.
Please, think through your responses before posting. Make sure they ADD to the conversation.
I will leave it up to the writer of the e-mail if he/she would like to make himself/herself known here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cents on this from bitter experience. You will get zilch. You will waste precious amounts of your life trying hard to convince a rigid management who can care so little they'd be happy to break your phone to pieces and hand you another from their stockpile of dinc4g's just to get rid of them ASAP. I've gone through the whole lot with BBB complaints etc. for the Droid X2 by Motorola. haha, wasted my life there. And the countless pleadings to release the ICS ROM that HTC clearly developed for the Dinc2 (Incredible S, international variant got the ICS update) only to get on the Verizon chopping block and get its head unceremoniously severed, taught me one thing and that is we as consumers have knowingly chosen this path, that will give us limited to no flexibility on customization to stay on VZW and we have to "deal" with it.
With all good intentions, I request all to keep your expectations rock bottom. You have better chances of going to the moon on a future Russian spacecraft than convincing Verizon as to why this may be a good idea.
Sincerely,
A disgruntled Droid™ user.
here has been my android experience. started on og inc oct 2010 first droid phone considered ''high-end'' at the time (8 mp camera saaaaay whaaaat??!) then dinc2 great phone but compared to the galaxy S II and the galaxy nexus at the time it was a ''mid range" phone. now with the inc4g it is very ''mid range'' compared to what is out now. the galaxy notes and s4's and the 50 different htc One(s). if you want many different roms to flash to fix your ''addiction'' go nexus or one of the mainstream phones. you will find 100 different "Unofficial CM10.X" roms with "user tweaks" and "kernel tweaks" that in all actuality are nothing more then a reposync from source. yeah they might have a few different mods but they are usually so similar that you will not/could not tell the difference. like someone mentioned earlier I would rather have a few solid roms. a good sense (viper) or if you're an aosp guy like me there's cm. I think anybody who saw the specs of this phone (incredible 4g) and thought, "hey this is going to be the next BIG THING." I'm sorry to tell you that you were mistaken. xda dev support of a phone is only as good as the devs that own the device, and in our case we have a very small amount of active devs.
So I am the a-hole that emailed mdmower. I apologize profusely. When I saw your first post, I almost slunk away in shame, never to show my face here again. I am not even being a little bit facetious. You do great work for a community of people and I abused (what obviously is) an important rule. And I'm really sorry.
In an attempt to redeem myself just a little bit, let me point out one thing that you might not know:
mdmower said:
Can you point to a single advertisement by either HTC or Verizon that the Droid Incredible 4G LTE would ever be included in HTCDev's unlocked bootloader program? Even HTC's generic advertisements include disclaimers that some devices may not be included due to various restrictions (the most obvious being carrier refusal) [SNIP] There is no legitimate complaint that can be filed towards Verizon concerning this matter since they never advertised this as an available feature.
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Actually, some states may have more favorable law here. First and foremost, many states have an unfair/deceptive business practices law that are distinct from the false advertising law. Example: New York has GBL Section 349 (trade practices), and 350 (Advertising). These are consumer-oriented statutes and so they have some bite.
On this point, while Verizon has never said they would provide us with Jelly Bean, there are some nice facts here like how many people were locked into 2 year contracts on a phone that Verizon stopped updating during their two year period. I've seen suggestions that Verizon is pulling this with older phones in order to force upgrades, and if true, that would be the basis for a claim. But here, I think the HTCDev unlock is actually pretty damning. We should be entitled to take discovery into the real reasons why Verizon forced HTC to remove the phone from the program. Given the repeated warnings about waiver of warranty, and the presence of other VZW phones in the program, it's hard to believe it's a support issue.
Finally -- of note is that the ACLU has filed an FTC complaint on this subject earlier this year. Unfortunately I cannot post the link since I just registered for this post (long time lurker) but it's the 2nd hit for "april FTC complaint android" (see pages 6-9) Their basis is the potential for security flaws which go unfixed. The relief they are requesting is pretty broad. I'm actually surprised that there haven't been follow-on civil suits already.
Anyway, I am really sorry again. I'm going to crawl back under the rock I came from now.
If it's any comfort: my punishment is that my D4INC is a flicker model.
PrimePalaver said:
If it's any comfort: my punishment is that my D4INC is a flicker model.
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Haha burn! Just kidding... it's cool.
Related
For months and months since I got my xv6800, I've been asking vzw reps, tech support morons, and WDTS people when OUR RevA/GPS software update will be released. Every time I ask I get the same response.
"Your handset is not EVDO Rev A upgradable"
"Your handset doesn't have GPS in it"
The HTC website never helped either because under specifications it never said anything about RevA capabilities, so I was forced to bite my tongue and just accept Verizon's stupidity.
Well HTC finally added it to their list of specifications. It's been like that for the Mogul and other Titan variants now for a while and now it's there for the xv6800.
http://www.htc.com/us/product.aspx?id=11150
What's Verizon gonna say now when I whip up that website and ask why the MANUFACTURER would list it as a capability if supposedly "my handset is not EVDO RevA upgradable?"
They'll be forced to look me in the eye and tell me the truth. They're too money hungry and lazy to step it up and get the software update going. They're too busy thinking up their next piece of **** application for Get It Now and developing new ways to screw their customers out of more money.
Granted I've had RevA and GPS working since the leak, but still...it's the principle!
/endrant
please let me know what they say when you call. I would love to hear it.
now, if they would only put something that says to some extent "upgradeable to 128mb ram" (one can hope...)
thanks
Please remember, you are talking to some lowly, near minimum wage customer service employee. Even if he wanted to give you a truthful answer, the truth is, he probably just doesnt know jack s***.
Save the effort and frustration, go with a custom ROM and live a happy life.
gcincotta said:
For months and months since I got my xv6800, I've been asking vzw reps, tech support morons, and WDTS people when OUR RevA/GPS software update will be released. Every time I ask I get the same response.
"Your handset is not EVDO Rev A upgradable"
"Your handset doesn't have GPS in it"
The HTC website never helped either because under specifications it never said anything about RevA capabilities, so I was forced to bite my tongue and just accept Verizon's stupidity.
Well HTC finally added it to their list of specifications. It's been like that for the Mogul and other Titan variants now for a while and now it's there for the xv6800.
http://www.htc.com/us/product.aspx?id=11150
What's Verizon gonna say now when I whip up that website and ask why the MANUFACTURER would list it as a capability if supposedly "my handset is not EVDO RevA upgradable?"
They'll be forced to look me in the eye and tell me the truth. They're too money hungry and lazy to step it up and get the software update going. They're too busy thinking up their next piece of **** application for Get It Now and developing new ways to screw their customers out of more money.
Granted I've had RevA and GPS working since the leak, but still...it's the principle!
/endrant
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Who gives a ****? We know it's capable and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't run their bloatware version of WM even if they released an update. Verizon sucks ass, we all know it. So why beat a dead horse?
Who gives a ****? We know it's capable and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't run their bloatware version of WM even if they released an update. Verizon sucks ass, we all know it. So why beat a dead horse?
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Ha do you think I would actually run their software update? It's just the mere principle. Don't forget though...if they finally do release an update we may get a new, better radio out of it.
Please remember, you are talking to some lowly, near minimum wage customer service employee. Even if he wanted to give you a truthful answer, the truth is, he probably just doesnt know jack s***.
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I've spoken with people high up on the food chain before that actually do know a thing or two about this stuff. In fact, one time I spoke with a tier 2 WDTS rep who was intrigued when I informed him that it in fact WAS capable. I stayed on the phone with him as I directed him to these forums while he read all about it. He said it's bs that they're being told to inform customers that it's not capable after reading.
lllboredlll said:
Who gives a ****? We know it's capable and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't run their bloatware version of WM even if they released an update. Verizon sucks ass, we all know it. So why beat a dead horse?
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there are some things i want for vz that i can only get from a vz update.
carriers supporting their products is a good thing, whether you run their firmware or not.
dcd1182 said:
there are some things i want for vz that i can only get from a vz update.
carriers supporting their products is a good thing, whether you run their firmware or not.
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Hence the comment "Verizon sucks ass, we all know it"
My point is why complain about something that is already known and established. I don't see you *****ing about Verizon. You know they suck, you wish they would support their hardware more, but you also know there isn't alot you can do about it. There has been so much put into the Titan community lately and yet people still *****. Sorry I just get tired of all the complaining done in these forums. I just think it's stupid to waste data space and a thread in this site to complain. I think everytime I'm unhappy I'm gonna start a thread just so I can ***** about it. This site is for technical data. Not someone's personal conquest to whine.
lllboredlll said:
H..... This site is for technical data. Not someone's personal conquest to whine.
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It's funny, you're doing a lot of *****ing and whining in this thread; just leave it alone.
Hence the comment "Verizon sucks ass, we all know it"
My point is why complain about something that is already known and established. I don't see you *****ing about Verizon. You know they suck, you wish they would support their hardware more, but you also know there isn't alot you can do about it. There has been so much put into the Titan community lately and yet people still *****. Sorry I just get tired of all the complaining done in these forums. I just think it's stupid to waste data space and a thread in this site to complain. I think everytime I'm unhappy I'm gonna start a thread just so I can ***** about it. This site is for technical data. Not someone's personal conquest to whine.
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You really need to learn to get a clue. In no way was my post "*****ing" or "complaining" about Verizon. I was merely pointing out that the times in the past when I was told certain things have come to an end because certain facts have finally been made public. If you can't see that then you need a lot of help my friend.
This site is for "technical data". What exactly is "technical data"? It's people like you that start the flames in these threads, not me. If you knew anything about this stuff you'd know that with carrier software updates comes updated radio roms, pri updates, driver updates, os updates, and more. Do you think these roms and kitchens just popped up out of nowhere? They magically created themselves? No, they came from official carrier releases and were extracted, cleaned, and tweaked. dcd and I have been looking for a solution for people to refresh their pri in case they accidentally let customizations run. A Verizon software update may contain something very useful in the extended rom that could help us develop it. I bet you didn't know that though right?
You've made it clear to everyone that YOU are the one who likes to "*****" and "complain", not me.
gcincotta said:
You really need to learn to get a clue. In no way was my post "*****ing" or "complaining" about Verizon. I was merely pointing out that the times in the past when I was told certain things have come to an end because certain facts have finally been made public. If you can't see that then you need a lot of help my friend.
This site is for "technical data". What exactly is "technical data"? It's people like you that start the flames in these threads, not me. If you knew anything about this stuff you'd know that with carrier software updates comes updated radio roms, pri updates, driver updates, os updates, and more. Do you think these roms and kitchens just popped up out of nowhere? They magically created themselves? No, they came from official carrier releases and were extracted, cleaned, and tweaked. dcd and I have been looking for a solution for people to refresh their pri in case they accidentally let customizations run. A Verizon software update may contain something very useful in the extended rom that could help us develop it. I bet you didn't know that though right?
You've made it clear to everyone that YOU are the one who likes to "*****" and "complain", not me.
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....epic reply....
RE: Rev A and GPS
Both the HTC site and Verizon say nothing of being GPS capable, yet there are people using GPS right now through avaialbe kitchens.
I love verizon. I have gotten nothing but "great" support from them with all 19 of my phones. (Starting with MotoV265 (5) MotoV710(4) MotoE815 (1) MotoQ (4) Treo700wx (3) and finally my XV6800 (2) all in only 3.5 years)
On a serious note though, the reason that they won't release GPS for it is because they can't regulate its use very well on their system. Their other phones use VZNav on the BREW enabled phones but, as far as I know, our phones don't do BREW.
PS. Can I ***** and complain a little too here?
kyxdadeveloper said:
Both the HTC site and Verizon say nothing of being GPS capable, yet there are people using GPS right now through avaialbe kitchens.
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There is a great difference between not listing a specification to denying its capability.
Keystone said:
There is a great difference between not listing a specification to denying its capability.
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i just talked to a verizon tech suport rep, she helped me reset my data after messing it up.
but at the end of the call, i asked "i heard about this rev A thing...is our phone capable of that?" and she looked it up and said yes it is.
she also said she wasnt aware of any plans to do any kind of software update that would enable it, and she said she wouldnt know about it until it was released..
then just for $hits and giggles, i asked, what about gps. can this phone do that? and she said like for what? navigation? i said, yeh, for navigation, for google maps, something like that.
she said since google maps is 3rd party software, she wouldnt be able to tell me for sure if it would work. But i asked is our phone capable of gps?
and she said "yes, it is capable, but its not supported"
i guess that means since they dont have any software that could use it, and since they dont support 3rd part software, the can still say its capable, without actually enabling it on a stock rom.
just my experience about 20 min ago
gbenj said:
i just talked to a verizon tech suport rep, she helped me reset my data after messing it up.
but at the end of the call, i asked "i heard about this rev A thing...is our phone capable of that?" and she looked it up and said yes it is.
she also said she wasnt aware of any plans to do any kind of software update that would enable it, and she said she wouldnt know about it until it was released..
then just for $hits and giggles, i asked, what about gps. can this phone do that? and she said like for what? navigation? i said, yeh, for navigation, for google maps, something like that.
she said since google maps is 3rd party software, she wouldnt be able to tell me for sure if it would work. But i asked is our phone capable of gps?
and she said "yes, it is capable, but its not supported"
i guess that means since they dont have any software that could use it, and since they dont support 3rd part software, the can still say its capable, without actually enabling it on a stock rom.
just my experience about 20 min ago
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You'd all be smart to switch to Sprint with your xv6800s. I think they'll let you do it. you may have to pay $100 to $200 to get out of your contract with Verizon. It will be worth it once your accounts are set up properly. Sprint has the worst customer service, but at least they are trying to get WM6.1 up. The GPS works great on the Mogul. Your xv6800 hardware is identical to the Mogul. You should be able to Hard SPL, flash a Sprint ROM, and then go in and get you phone set up on Sprint. Check this forum carefully for details and follow instructions carefully.
Spr0ckEt said:
I love verizon. I have gotten nothing but "great" support from them with all 19 of my phones. (Starting with MotoV265 (5) MotoV710(4) MotoE815 (1) MotoQ (4) Treo700wx (3) and finally my XV6800 (2) all in only 3.5 years)
On a serious note though, the reason that they won't release GPS for it is because they can't regulate its use very well on their system. Their other phones use VZNav on the BREW enabled phones but, as far as I know, our phones don't do BREW.
PS. Can I ***** and complain a little too here?
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I agree with you. started with LG VX6000,8000, 8100, 700w 700wx and now this one XV6800...may some day they will tell me the truth and stop and do the right thing
Switch to sprint? Haha, the development community surrounding this phone is so immense that within hours after any carrier releases ANY update, it is ripped, stripped, and rereleased with unicarrier availability. I am running 3.49 on my xv6800, with radio 3.39, so..
Now, Sero is very, very appealing. $30 a month for unlimited Data is heavenly. I have free data due to some technical complications, but my family share plan with 700 minutes for 3 people costs more than 30 times 3.
Lmfao is it really going to make you feel better to take up the time of a rep that can't magically enable the gps function for you? Custom rom is the way to go, it's easy and you don't have to give anyone a headache in the process.
I swear, some of you are either illiterate, or just choose not to read certain parts.
gcincotta said:
You really need to learn to get a clue. In no way was my post "*****ing" or "complaining" about Verizon. I was merely pointing out that the times in the past when I was told certain things have come to an end because certain facts have finally been made public. If you can't see that then you need a lot of help my friend.
This site is for "technical data". What exactly is "technical data"? It's people like you that start the flames in these threads, not me. If you knew anything about this stuff you'd know that with carrier software updates comes updated radio roms, pri updates, driver updates, os updates, and more. Do you think these roms and kitchens just popped up out of nowhere? They magically created themselves? No, they came from official carrier releases and were extracted, cleaned, and tweaked. dcd and I have been looking for a solution for people to refresh their pri in case they accidentally let customizations run. A Verizon software update may contain something very useful in the extended rom that could help us develop it. I bet you didn't know that though right?
You've made it clear to everyone that YOU are the one who likes to "*****" and "complain", not me.
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lol.... ya I thought all of the software and drivers just popped out of someone ass My whole point in this ( which you missed totally) is, why start a thread to *****? Either way it really don't matter. Next time I'll keep my personal opinion to myself as I normally do.
The next time you make a thread to ***** maybe you might want to leave out the gay "/endrant" crap. What is a rant, may I ask sir? I'll answer it for you..... It means your *****ing!!!
steb0ne said:
It's funny, you're doing a lot of *****ing and whining in this thread; just leave it alone.
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lol... I'm sorry about *****ing about him *****ing or whatever he's gonna call it. Next time I'll roll my eyes and continue without commenting.
Yeah, I'm not entering my name anywhere. Thanks anyway, HTC. Besides, AlphaRev and Unrevoked already did your job for you.
Since our last update, many of you have asked how the bootloader unlocking process will actually work, and in particular why HTC's most recently released devices still have a locked bootloader. Rest assured we're making progress toward our goal to roll out the first software updates in August to support unlocking for the global HTC Sensation, followed soon by the HTC Sensation 4G on T-Mobile and the HTC EVO 3D on Sprint. Because unlocking the bootloader provides extensive control over the device and modifications may cause operation, security and experience issues, new devices will continue to ship locked but will support user-initiated unlocking using a new Web-based tool.
So how will this work? The Web tool, which will launch this month, requires that you register an account with a valid e-mail address and accept legal disclaimers that unlocking may void all or parts of your warranty. Then plug in your phone to a computer with the Android SDK loaded to retrieve a device identifier token, which you can then enter into the Web tool to receive a unique unlock key via e-mail. Finally, apply the key to your device and unlocking will be initiated on your phone.
We're excited to bring bootloader unlocking to developers and enthusiasts, and we feel this new Web tool will meet your needs and continue to provide customers with the best experience. Thanks to the community for supporting these efforts!
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https://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&¬e_id=10150305151453084&id=101063233083
I figured they would want a way to know exactly which phones were unlocked. i'll stick with alpha revs method.
From my mikmikoptimized shooter!
blackroseMD1 said:
Yeah, I'm not entering my name anywhere. Thanks anyway, HTC. Besides, AlphaRev and Unrevoked already did your job for you.
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&¬e_id=10150305151453084&id=101063233083
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wow. some actual clarity on what they plan to do.
nice to see an update !
but for the evo3d is a bit late
Lmao,actually according to their explanation,their method sounds just like AlpharevX.It would be hilarious if alpharevX sold their method to HTC.
That blows. They couldn't just ship the damn thing unlocked.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk
ktulu909 said:
Lmao,actually according to their explanation,their method sounds just like AlpharevX.It would be hilarious if alpharevX sold their method to HTC.
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Well, if he did I hope he didn't sell them the serial numbers of the ones already unlocked jk
I guess it all makes sense (har har).
If it makes the carriers happy, who cares if this is how they do it? I'm sure whenever they release a bootloader unlocker someone on XDA will take it and make it so you can do it without the email/key. We're gonna come out ahead either way.
Well i guess now they will know when we unlock our bootloader and warranty I don't care since I don't use the warranty anyways
If you don't have an Evo3d well you don't have an Evo3d
I'd be curious to know from Google, Sprint and Samsung how many problems they have from the NexusS4G being very easily unlockable...I doubt it's very many...and HTC should suck on that.
I don't know if that's as much of a fair comparison - with the Nexus being near stock I wouldn't expect them to be flashed/bricked nearly as much as with the Evo4G.
The OG Evo gained so much from flashing - features, kernels, whole new versions of sense. And it had so many updates over the life of the phone, making for different rooting methods and having people flash their phones many many times, making it one of if not the most developed phone we have seen.
I'm quite certain the brick count on those were some of the highest anyone's ever seen as well. That's after all the returns from dead pixels, bad charging ports, and what have you. You can understand a carrier/manufacturer's wishing to prevent all that.
By the same token, it feels like HTC benefits greatly from the development community, perhaps using a lot of what they see here in their own updates (maybe even waiting for people to fix their bugs). They definitely see value in unlocking phones, which I guess we should be happy about.
As long as HTC keeps their unlocked policy I will remain a loyal customer.
nhutpham said:
I don't know if that's as much of a fair comparison - with the Nexus being near stock I wouldn't expect them to be flashed/bricked nearly as much as with the Evo4G.
The OG Evo gained so much from flashing - features, kernels, whole new versions of sense. And it had so many updates over the life of the phone, making for different rooting methods and having people flash their phones many many times, making it one of if not the most developed phone we have seen.
I'm quite certain the brick count on those were some of the highest anyone's ever seen as well. That's after all the returns from dead pixels, bad charging ports, and what have you. You can understand a carrier/manufacturer's wishing to prevent all that.
By the same token, it feels like HTC benefits greatly from the development community, perhaps using a lot of what they see here in their own updates (maybe even waiting for people to fix their bugs). They definitely see value in unlocking phones, which I guess we should be happy about.
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Were there that many bricked E4G's? I don't recall hearing about that many of them in my tenure on the forum...admittedly I barely spent any time in General that year as Development was bustling from before day 1.
...but, per capita I doubt the brick-count was that far off the average for any other popular phone worth rooting. God knows I did horrible things to mine and never even had to fix it via adb/fastboot.... it was a very popular phone even among the average joe.
I know that HTC benefits greatly from the dev community. Where do you think they got the FPS-unlock from? Among other things. That's how open source works and is designed to work. That's also why myself and others were so shocked with the whole 'locking' fiasco.
...now, aside from our own speculation about how high the brick rate may or may not have been why not speculate about something more productive: How LOW the brick rate could be if they utilized eMMC's secure-write technology to make a 'mega-recovery' partition that would be locked and even WE wouldn't want to unlock it....that could be used in a worst case scenario to fully restore a phone to stock...to enable the unlocking that WE want and reduce the (understandable) liability of allowing full control that they want. We get unlock, they get insulation from liability of allowing such a feature (that most people STILL wouldn't know about or care about)....why don't they do that? eMMC makes that trivial to implement (as we found out the hard way)...neglecting the fact that they could have utilized any number of simpler technologies to accomplish the same thing even before eMMC...why not?
That's a topic for further speculation (get your tinfoil hats ready), but, why don't they do that? Play both sides of the field. No voided warranties, no brick returns, no pissed off modders....win win win, right? The carrier doesn't want that? Cool, let us know, we'll flock to the carrier that allows it...something tells me Sprint would be that underdog...
ktulu909 said:
Lmao,actually according to their explanation,their method sounds just like AlpharevX.It would be hilarious if alpharevX sold their method to HTC.
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Not at all like what AlphaRevX did. The only reason they had the serial number check was because it was in Beta so they could shut down their serial generator and stop people using their unlock if they found a problem with it.
This HTC method makes sense, and I think it's fair. Their tool only needs to hook up to your phone to get the device identifier token, the unlock actually happens on the phone itself. This way HTC gets a list of unlocked phones so when people go for support you can't lie to them that your phone was unlocked, but people can have day one unlocks on any phone from HTC going forward.
So now HTC wants to know who exactly is unlocking there phones??
Nice try you sneaky basterds
What's wrong with them knowing if you're unlocked? They have to do that... Otherwise insurance companies would get upset. This is legit and it if people screw their phones up due to user error while unlocked then they shouldn't be able to file a claim.
This also let's them see just how many people want to be unlocked so they don't try and take it away from us again
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
Rippley05 said:
What's wrong with them knowing if you're unlocked? They have to do that... Otherwise insurance companies would get upset. This is legit and it if people screw their phones up due to user error while unlocked then they shouldn't be able to file a claim.
This also let's them see just how many people want to be unlocked so they don't try and take it away from us again
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
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yeah....I dunno. They could (relatively) easily make the phones nearly brick-proof (see my above post) yet they do not. Why? I'm almost irritated by all of the altruistic sentiment for 'doing the right thing'....not because of the altruism, I actually find that refreshing and endearing. It's more because they could take steps to nearly eliminate the potential for bricking (and in doing so insulate the insurance company from liability...making that a moot point), but that people are defending a position that needn't exist.
nhutpham said:
i guess it all makes sense (har har).
If it makes the carriers happy, who cares if this is how they do it? I'm sure whenever they release a bootloader unlocker someone on xda will take it and make it so you can do it without the email/key. We're gonna come out ahead either way.
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+1000000000
Haha, sounds exactly how alpharev did it...hmm, maybe they tore it out of alpharevs hands, i dont know, sounds fishy.
daneurysm said:
yeah....I dunno. They could (relatively) easily make the phones nearly brick-proof (see my above post) yet they do not. Why? I'm almost irritated by all of the altruistic sentiment for 'doing the right thing'....not because of the altruism, I actually find that refreshing and endearing. It's more because they could take steps to nearly eliminate the potential for bricking (and in doing so insulate the insurance company from liability...making that a moot point), but that people are defending a position that needn't exist.
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You don't know why they're doing it. Maybe they wanna track the people that abuse the crap out of wireless tether... Maybe it's for other reasons. Who cares, they are unlocking it for us and that's all that matters. I have nothing to hide when I root so I care less. If you're upset about it then there are other options.
People are getting exactly what they wanted and they still find a reason to cry... Get over it already
Sent from my PG86100 using XDA Premium App
Reposted with permission:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1419815
OPERATION: Make Our Selves Heard (#OPMOSH)
DISCLAIMER:
We here, in the movement of #OPMOSH do not consider this spam, we do not consider this slandering Moto, we simply use this as a method of having our concerns heard. Motorola Mobility Inc. has been a powerful company that has been around for a very long time, and one we hope to see long in the future as well, before and after the Google buyout.
About this movement:
Motorola Mobility Inc. has become famous for its lies, slanderous ways, and tendency to flat out prove time and time again that it cares not for its customers after they walk out of that store with their Motorola-branded device. Since the early days of Android, post Droid 1, we have sat down and took our locked bootloaders like a man. There came to be a boiling point - and a full-out war was launched on their social media sites. Sound familiar? The same thing that worked with HTC and now with Asus. We received a generic "second half of 2011" timing. Guess what! It's now Q1 2012, and not only have they missed their deadline, but they have IGNORED all bootloader-related questions, given NO official announcement of their plans still being in motion, and thus must have forgotten that we are a core, dedicated community that wishes nothing more than to enjoy the phones we were given. Let's make ourselves heard yet again, turn the heat up, and make Moto (like HTC) get off of their asses and DO SOMETHING. Everyone counts!
Moto's Facebook - Moto's Twitter - Petition - FCC Complaints (Against Verizon)
So....What can I do?
FIRST OFF, SIGN THE PETITION:
This is included in the email, so it is crucial that it continues to grow in number.
Then....
TRY CALLING VERIZON'S EXECUTIVES.
Make sure before calling that you are very informed about the issue and confident in your position, yet can be quite calm. Do not show any disrespect towards Marie H or the person you call. They are merely the (wo)man-in-the-middle, and you simply need to explain to them your position and back it up with facts. Also, do note that all times are EST.
Call Marie H. at (412) 266-7756 on Monday - Fridays, 8 am to 5 pm. OR Michelle at (803) 231-1787 on Monday - Fridays, 7 am to 4 pm. OR Call Verizon customer service at *611 or (800) 922-0204 and get to a rep by mashing 0.
This is something you cannot copy-paste, unfortunately. Here are some guidelines that should help you be successful in your endeavor:
- First off, if you get the voicemail, leave your name, number, and a time you can be contacted in case they wish to follow-up call.
- Mention that many are filing FCC complaints because this violates Block C guidelines. (Do research in case this is brought into question)
- Mention that HTC, Motorola, and Samsung have bootloader-unlockable devices on the network right now; (HTC has their 2011 devices, Moto has the Xoom, and Samsung the Galaxy Nexus)
- Mention that the bootloader being locked does not allow the device to do anything that a laptop that is using a 4G hotspot cannot do even faster/more efficiently, including hogging network resources.
- Mention that the bootloaders being FORCE locked (as in, not unlockable) does not offer protection from any present viruses or attacks of Android devices.
- Mention also that unlocking the bootloaders could very well use a system like HTC uses - which stores the IMEI of the device and voids its software warranty indefinitely, making Verizon's warranty services not liable for what a user installs on their device.
- Close your talk/voicemail by stating the number of signatures on the petition, currently well over 2,500, and saying that this is a widespread concern of many users, that wish Android to be truly open.
- Say thank you before you hang up, it'll really give off a good impression.
TRY AN FCC COMPLAINT:
http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm
Select Wireless Telephone > Billing, Service, Privacy, Number Portability and other issues > Online Form. Fill out your information, scroll down, fill out 1 and 2, skip 3 and 4. Then in 5:
- Tell the FCC that your phone’s bootloader was sold to you locked, preventing the regulatory requirement of BLOCK C Devices (MAKE SURE TO MENTION BLOCK C!!!) that "Consumers should be able to download and utilize any software applications, content, or services they desire" - make sure to cite that.
- Also helpful would be dispelling the "Reasonable network management" exclusion. Tell the FCC that Verizon allows tethering of unauthorized devices to 4G LTE services through their mobile hotspots and their paid phone tethering functionality as-is, ones that are more bandwidth-hungry and also permit installing custom operating systems, and have a potential of doing significantly more damage, such as laptops.
If you don't want to write yours up manually, we will have a pre-made step 5 that you can just copy paste soon, hopefully.
TRY EMAILING:
TO: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]rola.com, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
To Whom It May Concern,
The independent communities that you catered to with your announcement earlier last year are very very excited for your bootloader unlock solution. However, the "second half" of 2011 has come and gone quietly; why is it that the public has received no notice that the bootloader unlock solution is still in works? A small-scale petition has made its rounds about the Android community, and has already gained over 2,500 signatures just under 55 hours after being made public: http://www.change.org/petitions/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Clearly, the demand is indeed still quite strong (as can be seen on your social media networks, Facebook and Twitter), and it would be quite reassuring to the communities that not only pay for your devices every upgrade opportunity, but also help develop the Android operating system that you are using on the aforementioned devices, to have an announcement that the bootloader unlock/relock solution is still on track for a timely release. This would also potentially double as reassurance to on-the-fence Galaxy Nexus/HTC smartphone buyers to go with the Motorola Droid RAZR, with its KEVLAR backing, Verizon 4G LTE speed, powerful 1.2 GHz dual core processor, and new bootloader unlock/relock solution instead. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your response.
Sincerely,
A Motorola Mobility Enthusiast.
TRY TWEETING:
@Motorola - How about those unlocked bootloaders you promised second half of 2011? @HTC cares, do you? http://moto.ly/icsboot
TRY POSTING ON THEIR FACEBOOK WALL:
@Motorola - I'm a faithful Motorola customer, and I'm starting to have second thoughts. Honor what Android stands for, openness, and give us the bootloader unlock tool that you promised "second-half of 2011". http://moto.ly/icsboot #OPMOSH
MAKE SURE TO SIGN THE PETITION!!
It is the backbone of this movement. We need as many signatures as possible.
We NEED to be heard to get anywhere. Spread the word to your Facebook friends, your Twitter friends, your Google Talk friends, your favorite Android news site... Spread the word! Bring freedom to the Android ecosystem, like Andy Rubin and Rich Miner intended.
Thank you SO much for your support. This community is amazing and I know our endeavors will be successful. See you on Moto's Facebook!
In an effort to get better coverage, I would suggest crossposting to as many Android forums outside XDA as possible. Most definitely, send it to Android Police. It could be worth a shot. While I understand different folks have preferences as to what forums they frequent, getting the word out is paramount.
Just my $0.02 US
Make sure you start a similar one with verizon because i am pretty sure motorola is going to play the blame game as soon as this gains momentum based on the line from the blog post
"where operator and channel partners will allow it. "
I'd like to think this will work if we get it out there enough. It's the customers vs. the company, I can't think of anybody who would want it stay locked except for those people who are like "oh but then it'll just be easier for people to screw up."
zeb carter said:
In an effort to get better coverage, I would suggest crossposting to as many Android forums outside XDA as possible. Most definitely, send it to Android Police. It could be worth a shot. While I understand different folks have preferences as to what forums they frequent, getting the word out is paramount.
Just my $0.02 US
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couldnt he also post it to many of the xda motorola forums? except those that are already unlocked of course
id send it to droid-life as well
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
This is a good idea. I like the idea of mass emailing them.
Sent from my DROID X2 using XDA App
I'll be doing my part as well. Thanks for starting this thread.
ztotherad said:
couldnt he also post it to many of the xda motorola forums? except those that are already unlocked of course
id send it to droid-life as well
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
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I'd even post on the unlocked ones. Many people would help the cause. They could write how much they benefit from their phone with an unlocked bootloader. I even bet a significant number of the larger Android community would assist because we all have the same end game in mind.
This thread is great. I was just thinking yesterday of collecting the various resources to petition Motorola. You made everything very clear and we thank you. SPREAD THE WORD!! and, most importantly, ACT ON IT PEOPLE!!
Now we need a script to auto-tweet, auto-email, and auto-flame Motorola AND Verizon.
I'll help out with this cause any way that I can. I just posted on Moto's Facebook Page.
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
i just sent out an email to the addresses that were listed by the OP, lets see how long they can ignore the emails from the customers and ignore the petition. I hope they don't send back a generic email that states that they're "working" on it. If the dx2 is a "closet" device then maybe we can gain at least the key to unlock and we'd be gaining our pudding.
Being a recent HTC convert and former X2 owner, I can say that this could really work. We got our Rezound unlocked. This needs to get out there. You'd be surprised how powerful this can be if enough people here on XDA start making noise. Thanks, OP, for posting this. Good luck!
Can we organize a time to CALL motorola? I think clogging up their phone lines for a couple of hours may be more effective than jamming their inboxes with easily deleted emails. If we could get even 100 people to just call at the same time, we could be HIGHLY effective.
We could all also call the phone number listed in post number 96 of the similar thread in the RAZR forum. I think that if we politely annoy enough people things can get better.
'Bout to hit 1000..
Guys thus could work.we doubled our sigs in less then twelve hours at this rate we'd have 5000 by Saturday. Remember to send them emails and to remind other moto forums!! I have a feeling that they just might listen if we bagger them enough.
Sent from my eclipsed Droid x2
antp121 said:
Guys thus could work.we doubled our sigs in less then twelve hours at this rate we'd have 5000 by Saturday. Remember to send them emails and to remind other moto forums!! I have a feeling that they just might listen if we bagger them enough.
Sent from my eclipsed Droid x2
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I signed the petition.
I posted in the Motorola X2 forums that HTC has already unlocked their bootloaders within the United States, and that the X2 will be my last Motorola phone if they do not go through with their statement they released to unlock the bootloaders.
I sent an email (not nasty, but to-the-point) in the same vein as my post in their forums.
Remember, people. Do NOT be nasty about it: no name calling, no cursing, etc. Just state that you feel they should unlock the bootloader, especially since HTC has done it. I went as far as to suggest they contact HTC to see how they got Verizon and AT&T to allow this. Then, state that you won't be purchasing any more Motorola phones if they do not move forward with this. I was being kinder and stated that we, as customers, deserve an answer from them one way or another (whether they will unlock the phones or not). If they choose not to unlock the phones nor give an answer, the X2 was going to be my last Motorola phone.
It wasn't nasty, it was to the point and it was with tact. That's what we need, not a lot of flaming, etc. That won't get you anywhere and they'll just ignore it and treat it as if it were from some child or teenager, which is what I would do with it as well.
BTW, just read this excellent article on Droid Life. Pretty damning against Motorola if you ask me!
http://www.droid-life.com/2012/01/0...eed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DroidLife+(droid+life)
I went ahead and updated my post in the Moto forums to include this article link as well.
BTW, this has to be the 3rd or 4th "article" I've seen today about this. I think it's picking up steam. Now, whether Moto decides to listen and take action is another thing.
Exactly we must be to the point but not to forward it could be offensive plus that could hurt the cause And we still need a little more signer so tell your friends mom etc
Signed petition.hope were heard.
antp121 said:
Exactly we must be to the point but not to forward it could be offensive plus that could hurt the cause And we still need a little more signer so tell your friends mom etc
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I went and called Mrs. Ellen and Mrs. Houtz. They both want to help and are ready to join our cause. Let's make moves people.
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda mid-grade
Posted it on a google discussion in another forum. Can we get a list of forums this has been posted on?
I believe that we should have this posted on every phones forum because it's not just for us that it will benefit but it would benefit everyone and for me I wouldn't have to wait on a phone to see if it's dev friendly or just another red headed step child.
Sent from my DROID X2 using XDA App
I am not here to start a flame war. I am here to express my honest opinion. I would be more than happy to engage in polite rhetoric, but I will ignore any post containing personal attacks and completely illogical jumps/wild conjecture.
I have been paying very close attention to the OPMOSH movement, and I must say, I am extremely disappointed with what I have seen. To those who have already stopped, I thank you for either realizing that this movement is not going to accomplish its stated goal, or for giving up and moving on to another manufacturer's device, which I truly hope you are enjoying.
For those still pursuing this course of action, I offer the following:
Motorola Mobility, in response to a very poorly written reply from one of their Facebook page operators, stated that they were working with carriers to provide a solution that allowed their devices to be open to developers, and still stisfied their overall security policies. This statement was not a promise to unlock anything, merely stating that they were working towards a solution.
In April of 2011, Motorola released a statement that it was their intention to offer unlockable/relockable bootloaders across their portfolio in late 2011 where carriers would allow it. Again, this statement is not a promise, but a clarification and expansion of their Facebook reply in January. They were aiming for deployment in late 2011, but they didn't explicitly state that there would definitely be an unlock tool at that time.
In October of 2011, Motorola stated that the Motorola Razr would have an unlockable bootloader if the carrier wanted it. This statement is indeed a promise, but there was no timeline given for its deployment. If they were still on course for late 2011, I'm absolutely certain they would have been more than happy to announce that as well. Since they did not say the tool would be available at launch, nor did they say when it would be available, the only logical conclusion is that it would be made available when it was ready and the proper agreements had been reached with each specific carrier, which I'd gather is more difficult than simply notifying the carrier of their intended action.
And so, we come to OPMOSH. The thread was started on the xda website on January 4th of 2012. The idea was that if enough people screamed loud enough, and long enough, and disrupted their operationss enough, Motorola Mobility would give in to the demands of the community and provide the unlock tool that was "promised" nearly a year prior.
Except there was no promise, there is no "right" to having an unlocked bootloader. There is a possible FCC violation, but at this point I'm absolutely sure they are aware of the situation, and we can let them go about their investigation. They won't tell us the progress on such investigation, but continually showering them with notifications will not speed the process.
Motorola's position is fairly well laid out in post #40 of the Razr Developer Edition discussion thread on their official forums. For those who don't want to Google it, essentially one of the forum managers states that they have had issues with working with the developer community in the past, and are not exactly jumping at the chance to open what they see as a Pandora's box of sorts. And, based on the actions taken by many supporting OPMOSH, I really can't blame them. The community has shown that they are willing to maliciously disrupt Motorola's normal business operations because they want something they are not entitled to in the first place. OPMOSH is the equivalent of a smear campaign, and if Motorola were to give in at this point and provide an unlock tool, it would only open them to further abuse from the community, or anyone else who wants a particular feature they think is "necessary" or their "right".
And before anyone throws the "it can't be *insert carrier*, they let the Nexus/HTC/Samsung phone be unlocked", I'm certain that each carrier has an agreement with each phone manufacturer that differs in key aspects. In the Verizon/Motorola agreement, there could very well be a clause that prevents Motorola from unlocking their devices. Obviously, encrypting the locked bootloader was Motorola's choice, but by doing so they can more effectively market their products to the lucrative enterprise and government accounts, who welcome such details to retain the integrity of their intranets. I know several IT departments that have issued Droid X2s, and more recently Razrs, to replace aging Blackberries for precisely this reason. True, some others are starting to use HTC and Samsung handsets, but there is no denying that Motorola produces the most secure and business oriented devices of any current major manufacturer.
And so, it is my firm opinion that based upon the above arguments, OPMOSH needs an immediate and total cease and desist. We are shooting ourselves in the foot at this point. They are removing/ignoring posts on their Facebook because that is their right. They are removing/ignoring tweets because that is their right. We do not have the right to abuse, slander, or otherwise disrupt any corporate entity, when they are well within their own rights to distribute their products within the confines of their legal obligations based upon binding carrier agreements which were most likely made long before having a locked bootloader became such a huge issue.
If you do not like the handset you have, sell or trade it for another one through Swappa, eBay, or Craigslist. If you like the handset you have, then be patient. I can guarantee that Motorola has heard what now amounts to little more than whining, and will move forward with their stated intent of unlocking their bootloaders where they can, and possibly (hopefully) working to renegotiate their carrier agreements to allow unlocked bootloaders. Thinking that all it takes for Motorola to unlock their bootloaders is to flip a switch and there will be no repercussions to that decision is to not only overlook important facts, but in the end is simply wishful thinking. If it really was that simple, then all HTC phones would have been unlockable as soon as their site went live.
Regardless, by pitching the internet equivalent of a child's fit, constantly bombarding Motorola's social media outlets, and wasting the time of several Motorola employees in the process, we are only reaffirming Motorola's view of our lack of trustworthiness as a community.
I, for one, love my Motorola device. I will continue to hack it to my liking and to the best of my ability. I will share anything I think is cool or interesting with the community because I want to do so, not because I am or feel obligated to. I will make the choice to believe that I am not limited by the manufacturer of my device, but only by my imagination and ingenuity. I will continue to support the countless devs who use their precious personal time to enhance my user experience far beyond what I thought possible.
Finally, I will continue to believe that Motorola still intends to follow through on their statements, and are working toward a solution that will allow us to have the freedom to do as we please with our phones, while providing a strong and secure experience to the customers who require such things.
I appreciate anyone who has made it this far, and apologize for the wall of text. I hope that my plea does not go unnoticed, and can bring at least some sanity to our community.
TL;DR : Motorola never promised us anything. We do not have any right to an unlocked bootloader, any more than we have a right to use exploits in the Android code to gain root access. OPMOSH is a smear campaign that is likely to only serve to deepen Motorola's distrust in the Android development community. Only by stopping OPMOSH, and showing faith in Motorola as a company, will they ever see fit to give us what we ask for, and start to close the massive rift that has come between us.
As an aside, I am in no way affiliated with Motorola or any of its partners. I'm just a guy who is severely disappointed at the lack of reason and basic decency shown by the Motorola development community with regards to this situation. I have no illusion that my opinion means anymore than anyone else's, but I felt that I must at least try to forestall what I see as the only possible outcome should this operation continue, which is that Motorola will issue a statement that despite their best efforts they did not find a solution which is feasible at this time beyond offering special "developer edition" phones.
Kindly post a link to this "post #40" of which you speak of...
I have tried looking for it on their Support Forums, and their Developer Forums but I could not seem to find it.
This is an interesting post, and - if nothing else - I appreciate the amount of thought you've put into it.
I can agree on some points, and do feel that social media smear campaigns and/or armchair activism will accomplish little beyond hot air, as Motorola have not shown any indication that they're willing to budge. Endless Facebook spam does little to aid anyone, since the poor social media team and other customer-facing representatives are, in all likelihood, on the side of the customers they have to deal with on a daily basis, and have little to no power to make the fundamental changes we seek.
I have no doubt that there are Motorola representatives both among us, and on 'our side', as it were. There have been leaks galore, including one that resulted in the Atrix's bootloader being unlocked, a massive boon for its community. The GSM RAZR has already seen an early ICS leak, which was very welcome. Whispers and rumours have it that Moto has had some falling out with the developer community at some point. If anyone knows more about this, I'm very interested.
What you're missing, here, is a combination of expectation and impression. To make it personal, this is the first Motorola device I have personally owned, as there simply haven't been any flagship Moto devices that came in GSM flavours as well as CDMA (Aside from the too-little-too-late nobody-really-cares Milestone range, and the Atrix, which was a great idea that ended up outdated by launch). The RAZR's wonderful industrial design spoke to me, as did its SAMOLED screen, as Samsung have spoiled me and I can't stand LCDs any more. So I took the plunge, shifting from the very popular and very well supported Galaxy S II. No offense to Moto, their hardware is lovely, but their software is awful, the battery life is awful (A bigger battery is a very blunt force solution, re: RAZR MAXX), and it disappoints me greatly that I can’t change that when I could with my past three Android phones, and even my last Windows Mobile phone. I don't fully regret making the shift, but in retrospect, I wish I'd bought a Galaxy Note or Galaxy Nexus instead.
There are reasons for locking bootloaders that, disagree as I may, make a degree of sense. There's 'security', there's DRM content, there's enterprise IT requirements, and there's (supposedly) carrier requirements. But at this point, there's really not much reason to keep it locked, as the only thing it does is prevent running unsigned kernels. ROMs can be flashed, security can be breached, bloatware can be removed, and all that reasoning is essentially null and void. There is no advantage to a locked bootloader when a device is already rooted, it really doesn't provide any added security - indeed, the ability to flash one's own custom kernel compiled from source is the domain of the security conscious, not the casual user who might haphazardly harm their device - which, again, is certainly possible without the bootloader being unlocked.
There is really no good, specific argument in favour of locking the bootloader, especially when other OEMs – see: HTC, Sony Ericsson – are happy to provide tools that allow this, and Motorola did lead consumers to believe that the RAZR would be unlocked in much the same manner. A quick Googling leads me to this post here, which I believe to be the origin: http://ausdroid.net/2011/10/21/motorola-razr-to-be-unlockable/
Here, one Christy Wyatt is quoted as saying that the GSM variant of the RAZR would have an unlockable/relockable bootloader, and that Verizon had disabled this feature. The interesting thing about “where carriers allow” is that a large number of GSM RAZRs are sold SIM-free, and contain no carrier branding. There is no carrier to disallow the unlocking of the bootloader. Where is the excuse here?
I think it’s safe to say that the majority of RAZR owners pushing for the bootloader unlock would be happy to give up any features Moto – or carriers – feel the bootloader needs to be locked to enable. Webtop? DRM? Citrix? Enterprise security? Honestly, it seems like Moto is trying to market their devices to a specific niche, the BYO corporate market, and it feels to me that there’s too many compromises for what amounts to a relatively small segment (Or one that’s happy with iOS/Blackberry/et cetera anyway). Take a record of my IMEI. Disable as many stock features as you like. I would even give up Activesync support if I could have that unlocked bootloader.
These phones are hardware platforms, computing platforms. Back when the original Milestone was released – the delayed GSM counterpart to the original Droid – its bootloader was locked where the Droid’s was not. Motorola representatives went as far as to suggest that development enthusiasts purchase the then-current Nexus One instead of a Milestone. Bad form to actively turn their customers towards the competition. Android development has bloomed in the last few years, and it’s now expected that one should be able to modify one’s mobile device, just as has been the case with desktop hardware for decades. When one buys a phone, one owns that hardware. Even if they only have a ‘license’ to Motorola’s (Flawed) flavour of the software, they currently have no choice but to use it, and it’s an expectation of the open-source Android operating systems that its hardware platforms should be open for development.
There’s two more factors, here. One is damage control. Regardless of how this came about, consumers DID get the impression that – at the very least – the open market GSM RAZR would have an unlockable bootloader. It does not. Moto have only issued vague statements, some of which specifically mentioned software solutions (rather than “Buy another phone”) but have done very little to clarify the situation, or to placate their increasingly upset userbase.
Motorola might not ‘owe’ us an unlocked bootloader, per se, but they do owe their audience some clarity and some answers. It was also suggested in the above article that the bootloader solution may be rolled out with the Ice-Cream Sandwich updates, but this too has been a point of contention. Many are very disappointed with the Q2 timeframe when, again, the expectation was that the RAZR would be swiftly updated and not leave fans disappointed that they opted for a device shipping with an old OS revision when the new one was announced the same day as the RAZR itself. Moto have not been clear – and yes, I know there’s the old business mantra of underpromise and overdeliver, but it’s been going from bad to worse. Which brings me to the final factor…
The ‘Developer Edition’ is no solution at all. It is hardly fair to anyone, least of all existing customers who purchased the original RAZR in good faith, to announce a hardware revision to circumvent a firmware restriction. No warranty, full retail price for the same hardware, and just to make it laughable, the development device can’t even be unlocked at present.
TL;DR?
Yes, childish spam and/or smear campaigns on social media channels are childish. But there is no good reason for the bootloader to remain locked, and many customers purchased the device under the impression that an unlock method would be provided. Motorola’s communication has been poor at best, and people are understandably upset.
"I can guarantee that Motorola has heard what now amounts to little more than whining"
Please explain.
How long have you worked for Motorola?
And a short answer to your question:
NO!
In my opinion the problem is not only the locked bootloader. The bootloader is only a trigger that forced people to go over the edge. The problem is the arrogant and ignorant stance the motorola has been taking toward the common user of their devices. I know we live in an ultra capitalist world where "big players" can get away with anything, but in my opinion that alone should not be the reason for all of us to just give in and take it up our butts. Maybe these kinds of rebellions don't bring much success right away, but it sure as hell reminds these people that what they are doing will make some noise, and maybe will at least force them to think twice next time.
If we talk about this specific case: I understand that to some 400+ euro is not a lot of money, but to some it is almost their entire monthly paycheck and if i am willing to spend so much money on a product, the producer can expect from me wanting to get some "love" in return. Of course it is not their legal obligation, but just common logic that not all of us will be quiet and let them get away with anything and that is very important....what i was saying earlier. I'm sure in todays world when people are being eaten alive by the current political and social system, a little "love" (even if its fake), can take a company a long way and can in a long run be a market advantage and bring more money to that company. And money is the only thing they really care about. Well maybe 10.000-15.000 signatures are very little, but 5+ million users of xda now have heard or know for a fact (many known before OPMOSH) that motorola is the most unfriendly user company in the market. These people being a bit of tech-geeks have friends that come to them for advice when buying new phones,.... and very soon you come to a number ob 20+ million people having an argument against buying your product. And that is a very bad thing in todays highly competitive market where differences between products are very small.
So what i want to say is, that no matter what the way, it is always important that not all people are quiet, because even if it doesn't look like it straight away, it does makes a difference....maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but surely the day after that
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1511364
It does in fact elicit a response, so it is working
Im happy I also own a Xperia. I got my Razr because I belived the an article about the loader. Wont do that again.
http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp/2012...e-for-unlocked-2011-xperia-smartphone-models/
Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk
Well put by the OP and too have an honest opinion. I have followed the threads and it started strong but just like the whole "Occupy Wall Street/whatever city they wanna occupy" movement, it lost the true message and became a bunch of adults acting like spoiled 3 year olds when an adult tells them no. I could care less about an unlocked bootloader, I care more about rooting my Android phone and being able to use a stable custom ROM. I understand however taking a stand for a product we own. If y'all desperately want an unlocked bootloader got get the GNex
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
kimo91 said:
I could care less about an unlocked bootloader, I care more about rooting my Android phone and being able to use a stable custom ROM.
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I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous opinion to hold. I can understand frustration at people's behaviour, and I can understand playing devil's advocate, but custom ROMs are practically little more than themes without custom kernels. The locked bootloader is the reason we don't have a wide selection of stable custom ROMs for you to flash.
Enjoy your 'themes and tweaks'.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
onslaught86 said:
I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous opinion to hold. I can understand frustration at people's behaviour, and I can understand playing devil's advocate, but custom ROMs are practically little more than themes without custom kernels. The locked bootloader is the reason we don't have a wide selection of stable custom ROMs for you to flash.
Enjoy your 'themes and tweaks'.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
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Rediculous opinion? Last I checked I wasn't one if the many that claimed to be duped into buying a phone because Motorola said they would unlock the bootloader. I bought my Razr to suit my everyday needs, accessibility to root, and what not. Who cares if the current roms out now are mainly themed and has tweeked kernels, cause I simply don't. If my simple ways of using my phone or even customizing it the way i like it then im one of the few that perfers my phone the way it is currently. You sound like one of the many sheep out there that bought the Razr for Motorola to unlock the bootloader. Baaaaaa
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
kimo91 said:
Rediculous opinion? Last I checked I wasn't one if the many that claimed to be duped into buying a phone because Motorola said they would unlock the bootloader. I bought my Razr to suit my everyday needs, accessibility to root, and what not. Who cares if the current roms out now are mainly themed and has tweeked kernels, cause I simply don't. If my simple ways of using my phone or even customizing it the way i like it then im one of the few that perfers my phone the way it is currently. You sound like one of the many sheep out there that bought the Razr for Motorola to unlock the bootloader. Baaaaaa
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
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You like custom ROMs and claim not to care about unlocked bootloaders. Do you genuinely not see the fundamental contradiction in that, or are you just arguing the point because it's cool to be non-conformist these days?
Unlocking the bootloader affects you and your usage of the phone all of not - that's great, good for you. But it does affect plenty of other people, and your being a little tired of seeing them complain on social media channels does not invalidate their claim.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
Do not attack or offend other users regardless of your PERSONAL opinions. Keep this thread clean from abusive, flaming or attacks.
I know the one way to get htc to get back to profit, i said it here first, HTC-if you want to hire me as a futuristic trends consultant, ill take a look at your offer....Ok here it is folks... HTC, you must stop altering bootloaders and concealing source codes, which hamper development. Your bootloader must be made to be rooted and s off easily, without hurting the customer by saying, oh upgrade but your new bootlaoder wont be unlockable, thus alot of people breaking their new phones and bricking them because of this intrusive policy....Time if running out, before we all abandon you,, we are a big community here and can turn your sales around, if you treat us like almost human, say monkeys, yeah a monkey is a big step for you, but we can live with being monkeys if you stop your crap against us... but the goal is to treat us like HUMANS
Sadly, from a business perspective... modders are a small niche of the overall user base that often contribute towards large amounts of financial risk due to warranty claims. We always think we're a great big community who make significant differences in the ecosystem, but we don't. Another perfect example is the turboed manual transmission segment of Subaru. NASIOC and all the other Subaru enthusiast forums will think they make up the majority of the sales, but they really don't. And now, you barely see any turboed manual transmission Subarus outside of the WRX and the STI.
With the One family of phones, you can really tell that HTC is trying hard to create a global competitor to the Galaxy family and the iPhones, which sell to mostly non-modding end users.
i believe we are a big community, and ive been rooting for 3 years since samsung vibrant and the only way to ruin your device is to keep changing roms, kernels, etc.. i only use mean rom and trust his rom at this point, because im a veteran at this and play it safe these days. But if more people were happy, more positive feedback, and the word would get around quick that they care about us... hence, raising sales.. im sure theres a tiny loss from rooting, where someone trys to hide they did the damage and returns it, but that shouldnt stop the gains this would make for them...
Like the OP said, all good thoughts but we, meaning devs, end users who root and tweakers, represent a small, almost insignificant group. From a financial view, we aren't even a fraction of the incoming revenue.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using xda app-developers app
waterbound said:
Like the OP said, all good thoughts but we, meaning devs, end users who root and tweakers, represent a small, almost insignificant group. From a financial view, we aren't even a fraction of the incoming revenue.
Sent from my GT-P7510 using xda app-developers app
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Yes, we are small in numbers but we are very large in influence. Everyone I know comes to me before they think of purchasing a device. I'm sure there are many others on xda that are the same way. People know we are the ones that know what the best devices are at all times and which ones to purchase and not to purchase.
HTC need to stop ignoring their best marketing tool and use us to their advantage. If they are ignoring us because they think we are a small group and we don't impact their bottom line they are sorely mistaken.
I have grown rather tired of this same exact discussion, every week or two. Most notably the gripes of locked bootloaders. Htc has provided a way for you to unlock your bootloader, which allows you to flash a custom recovery, custom roms, and custom kernels.
The only limitation that I'm aware of, is updating firmware, which can be worked around by flashing the ruu via a relocked bootloader, then unlock again.
Is s-off more convenient? Yes, but it opens the phone to the ability to flash modified firmware that can brick your phone, that you'll somehow blame someone else for, and expect sprint/HTC to replace it.
With providing the unlocked bootloader (via htcdev), the chances of you actually bricking your device are extremely slim...almost the worst you can do is get caught in a bootloop.
From a business stance, HTC cares about making money. They don't care about your feelings, financial troubles, or how high your benchmarks are. You bought the phone, and that's how they'd like it to end. They don't want to have to replace it (via sprint or asurian) because you can't read and flashed a radio from the evo 4g.
I had to lol when a read that a small group of modders could turn around a company that lost almost a half billion dollars.
You don't say?
In all seriousness we're a very small part of HTC's profit margin the only way we could put a dent in their profit margins is mainstream media, but lets be honest it'd have to be a REALLY slow news day to get any coverage or a REALLY big law suit.
We also are the most enthusiastic android sales people who influence many of the people we know to buy phones because we know more about them than the people who actually sell them. If htc kept devs and the rooted community happy they would definitely see an increase in sales.
Just my 2 cents.
Sent from my EVO 4g LTE
sianaka said:
We also are the most enthusiastic android sales people who influence many of the people we know to buy phones because we know more about them than the people who actually sell them. If htc kept devs and the rooted community happy they would definitely see an increase in sales.
Just my 2 cents.
Sent from my EVO 4g LTE
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You've also got to realize the increase in warranty work they'll get with a larger dev community. No it's not going to negate the sales increase but these are all things they take into account when they [HTC] decide what their next move is.
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app