Related
Reposted with permission:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1419815
OPERATION: Make Our Selves Heard (#OPMOSH)
DISCLAIMER:
We here, in the movement of #OPMOSH do not consider this spam, we do not consider this slandering Moto, we simply use this as a method of having our concerns heard. Motorola Mobility Inc. has been a powerful company that has been around for a very long time, and one we hope to see long in the future as well, before and after the Google buyout.
About this movement:
Motorola Mobility Inc. has become famous for its lies, slanderous ways, and tendency to flat out prove time and time again that it cares not for its customers after they walk out of that store with their Motorola-branded device. Since the early days of Android, post Droid 1, we have sat down and took our locked bootloaders like a man. There came to be a boiling point - and a full-out war was launched on their social media sites. Sound familiar? The same thing that worked with HTC and now with Asus. We received a generic "second half of 2011" timing. Guess what! It's now Q1 2012, and not only have they missed their deadline, but they have IGNORED all bootloader-related questions, given NO official announcement of their plans still being in motion, and thus must have forgotten that we are a core, dedicated community that wishes nothing more than to enjoy the phones we were given. Let's make ourselves heard yet again, turn the heat up, and make Moto (like HTC) get off of their asses and DO SOMETHING. Everyone counts!
Moto's Facebook - Moto's Twitter - Petition - FCC Complaints (Against Verizon)
So....What can I do?
FIRST OFF, SIGN THE PETITION:
This is included in the email, so it is crucial that it continues to grow in number.
Then....
TRY CALLING VERIZON'S EXECUTIVES.
Make sure before calling that you are very informed about the issue and confident in your position, yet can be quite calm. Do not show any disrespect towards Marie H or the person you call. They are merely the (wo)man-in-the-middle, and you simply need to explain to them your position and back it up with facts. Also, do note that all times are EST.
Call Marie H. at (412) 266-7756 on Monday - Fridays, 8 am to 5 pm. OR Michelle at (803) 231-1787 on Monday - Fridays, 7 am to 4 pm. OR Call Verizon customer service at *611 or (800) 922-0204 and get to a rep by mashing 0.
This is something you cannot copy-paste, unfortunately. Here are some guidelines that should help you be successful in your endeavor:
- First off, if you get the voicemail, leave your name, number, and a time you can be contacted in case they wish to follow-up call.
- Mention that many are filing FCC complaints because this violates Block C guidelines. (Do research in case this is brought into question)
- Mention that HTC, Motorola, and Samsung have bootloader-unlockable devices on the network right now; (HTC has their 2011 devices, Moto has the Xoom, and Samsung the Galaxy Nexus)
- Mention that the bootloader being locked does not allow the device to do anything that a laptop that is using a 4G hotspot cannot do even faster/more efficiently, including hogging network resources.
- Mention that the bootloaders being FORCE locked (as in, not unlockable) does not offer protection from any present viruses or attacks of Android devices.
- Mention also that unlocking the bootloaders could very well use a system like HTC uses - which stores the IMEI of the device and voids its software warranty indefinitely, making Verizon's warranty services not liable for what a user installs on their device.
- Close your talk/voicemail by stating the number of signatures on the petition, currently well over 2,500, and saying that this is a widespread concern of many users, that wish Android to be truly open.
- Say thank you before you hang up, it'll really give off a good impression.
TRY AN FCC COMPLAINT:
http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm
Select Wireless Telephone > Billing, Service, Privacy, Number Portability and other issues > Online Form. Fill out your information, scroll down, fill out 1 and 2, skip 3 and 4. Then in 5:
- Tell the FCC that your phone’s bootloader was sold to you locked, preventing the regulatory requirement of BLOCK C Devices (MAKE SURE TO MENTION BLOCK C!!!) that "Consumers should be able to download and utilize any software applications, content, or services they desire" - make sure to cite that.
- Also helpful would be dispelling the "Reasonable network management" exclusion. Tell the FCC that Verizon allows tethering of unauthorized devices to 4G LTE services through their mobile hotspots and their paid phone tethering functionality as-is, ones that are more bandwidth-hungry and also permit installing custom operating systems, and have a potential of doing significantly more damage, such as laptops.
If you don't want to write yours up manually, we will have a pre-made step 5 that you can just copy paste soon, hopefully.
TRY EMAILING:
TO: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]rola.com, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
To Whom It May Concern,
The independent communities that you catered to with your announcement earlier last year are very very excited for your bootloader unlock solution. However, the "second half" of 2011 has come and gone quietly; why is it that the public has received no notice that the bootloader unlock solution is still in works? A small-scale petition has made its rounds about the Android community, and has already gained over 2,500 signatures just under 55 hours after being made public: http://www.change.org/petitions/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Clearly, the demand is indeed still quite strong (as can be seen on your social media networks, Facebook and Twitter), and it would be quite reassuring to the communities that not only pay for your devices every upgrade opportunity, but also help develop the Android operating system that you are using on the aforementioned devices, to have an announcement that the bootloader unlock/relock solution is still on track for a timely release. This would also potentially double as reassurance to on-the-fence Galaxy Nexus/HTC smartphone buyers to go with the Motorola Droid RAZR, with its KEVLAR backing, Verizon 4G LTE speed, powerful 1.2 GHz dual core processor, and new bootloader unlock/relock solution instead. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your response.
Sincerely,
A Motorola Mobility Enthusiast.
TRY TWEETING:
@Motorola - How about those unlocked bootloaders you promised second half of 2011? @HTC cares, do you? http://moto.ly/icsboot
TRY POSTING ON THEIR FACEBOOK WALL:
@Motorola - I'm a faithful Motorola customer, and I'm starting to have second thoughts. Honor what Android stands for, openness, and give us the bootloader unlock tool that you promised "second-half of 2011". http://moto.ly/icsboot #OPMOSH
MAKE SURE TO SIGN THE PETITION!!
It is the backbone of this movement. We need as many signatures as possible.
We NEED to be heard to get anywhere. Spread the word to your Facebook friends, your Twitter friends, your Google Talk friends, your favorite Android news site... Spread the word! Bring freedom to the Android ecosystem, like Andy Rubin and Rich Miner intended.
Thank you SO much for your support. This community is amazing and I know our endeavors will be successful. See you on Moto's Facebook!
In an effort to get better coverage, I would suggest crossposting to as many Android forums outside XDA as possible. Most definitely, send it to Android Police. It could be worth a shot. While I understand different folks have preferences as to what forums they frequent, getting the word out is paramount.
Just my $0.02 US
Make sure you start a similar one with verizon because i am pretty sure motorola is going to play the blame game as soon as this gains momentum based on the line from the blog post
"where operator and channel partners will allow it. "
I'd like to think this will work if we get it out there enough. It's the customers vs. the company, I can't think of anybody who would want it stay locked except for those people who are like "oh but then it'll just be easier for people to screw up."
zeb carter said:
In an effort to get better coverage, I would suggest crossposting to as many Android forums outside XDA as possible. Most definitely, send it to Android Police. It could be worth a shot. While I understand different folks have preferences as to what forums they frequent, getting the word out is paramount.
Just my $0.02 US
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couldnt he also post it to many of the xda motorola forums? except those that are already unlocked of course
id send it to droid-life as well
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
This is a good idea. I like the idea of mass emailing them.
Sent from my DROID X2 using XDA App
I'll be doing my part as well. Thanks for starting this thread.
ztotherad said:
couldnt he also post it to many of the xda motorola forums? except those that are already unlocked of course
id send it to droid-life as well
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
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I'd even post on the unlocked ones. Many people would help the cause. They could write how much they benefit from their phone with an unlocked bootloader. I even bet a significant number of the larger Android community would assist because we all have the same end game in mind.
This thread is great. I was just thinking yesterday of collecting the various resources to petition Motorola. You made everything very clear and we thank you. SPREAD THE WORD!! and, most importantly, ACT ON IT PEOPLE!!
Now we need a script to auto-tweet, auto-email, and auto-flame Motorola AND Verizon.
I'll help out with this cause any way that I can. I just posted on Moto's Facebook Page.
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda premium
i just sent out an email to the addresses that were listed by the OP, lets see how long they can ignore the emails from the customers and ignore the petition. I hope they don't send back a generic email that states that they're "working" on it. If the dx2 is a "closet" device then maybe we can gain at least the key to unlock and we'd be gaining our pudding.
Being a recent HTC convert and former X2 owner, I can say that this could really work. We got our Rezound unlocked. This needs to get out there. You'd be surprised how powerful this can be if enough people here on XDA start making noise. Thanks, OP, for posting this. Good luck!
Can we organize a time to CALL motorola? I think clogging up their phone lines for a couple of hours may be more effective than jamming their inboxes with easily deleted emails. If we could get even 100 people to just call at the same time, we could be HIGHLY effective.
We could all also call the phone number listed in post number 96 of the similar thread in the RAZR forum. I think that if we politely annoy enough people things can get better.
'Bout to hit 1000..
Guys thus could work.we doubled our sigs in less then twelve hours at this rate we'd have 5000 by Saturday. Remember to send them emails and to remind other moto forums!! I have a feeling that they just might listen if we bagger them enough.
Sent from my eclipsed Droid x2
antp121 said:
Guys thus could work.we doubled our sigs in less then twelve hours at this rate we'd have 5000 by Saturday. Remember to send them emails and to remind other moto forums!! I have a feeling that they just might listen if we bagger them enough.
Sent from my eclipsed Droid x2
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I signed the petition.
I posted in the Motorola X2 forums that HTC has already unlocked their bootloaders within the United States, and that the X2 will be my last Motorola phone if they do not go through with their statement they released to unlock the bootloaders.
I sent an email (not nasty, but to-the-point) in the same vein as my post in their forums.
Remember, people. Do NOT be nasty about it: no name calling, no cursing, etc. Just state that you feel they should unlock the bootloader, especially since HTC has done it. I went as far as to suggest they contact HTC to see how they got Verizon and AT&T to allow this. Then, state that you won't be purchasing any more Motorola phones if they do not move forward with this. I was being kinder and stated that we, as customers, deserve an answer from them one way or another (whether they will unlock the phones or not). If they choose not to unlock the phones nor give an answer, the X2 was going to be my last Motorola phone.
It wasn't nasty, it was to the point and it was with tact. That's what we need, not a lot of flaming, etc. That won't get you anywhere and they'll just ignore it and treat it as if it were from some child or teenager, which is what I would do with it as well.
BTW, just read this excellent article on Droid Life. Pretty damning against Motorola if you ask me!
http://www.droid-life.com/2012/01/0...eed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DroidLife+(droid+life)
I went ahead and updated my post in the Moto forums to include this article link as well.
BTW, this has to be the 3rd or 4th "article" I've seen today about this. I think it's picking up steam. Now, whether Moto decides to listen and take action is another thing.
Exactly we must be to the point but not to forward it could be offensive plus that could hurt the cause And we still need a little more signer so tell your friends mom etc
Signed petition.hope were heard.
antp121 said:
Exactly we must be to the point but not to forward it could be offensive plus that could hurt the cause And we still need a little more signer so tell your friends mom etc
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I went and called Mrs. Ellen and Mrs. Houtz. They both want to help and are ready to join our cause. Let's make moves people.
Sent from my DROID X2 using xda mid-grade
Posted it on a google discussion in another forum. Can we get a list of forums this has been posted on?
I believe that we should have this posted on every phones forum because it's not just for us that it will benefit but it would benefit everyone and for me I wouldn't have to wait on a phone to see if it's dev friendly or just another red headed step child.
Sent from my DROID X2 using XDA App
We need to bug HTC to get what the people want. To do so, you can tweet them and email. Remember, be professional!
Twitter: @HTC and @HTCDev
Send them both tweets about releasing the source for the Amaze.
I tweeted Faux and he said this to me:
https://twitter.com/faux123/status/205121987000016896
Also, E-Mail them.
http://htcdev.com/contact
Tell them why we want it and how it will benefit us AND them.
Here is what I wrote:
HTC has made a promise to help to development community by releasing the source code as well as unlocking the bootloader for their devices. However, the TI WLAN source code has been withheld from the community. This slows development and can even cease development for the device completely. Without the source code, developers will have to develop blindly and hoping not to break anything in the process. The Amaze 4G has great potential due to his hardware and power that it harnesses. Android is an Open Source OS, but HTC is sounding more like Apple, holding their source from the public. People purchased the device to experience the "Real Feel" of Android by customizing it, installing Custom ROMs, tweaking it, etc. Without the WLAN source code, we, as a community, have starting to lose faith in HTC and some of us have even pledged to never purchase an HTC device again due to HTC's policies. The community will like for HTC to rethink their strategy and be "Open" with the community. The best form of advertisement is by "The Word-of-Mouth". When our community, the tech savvy and the owners of a smartphone, see how HTC listens to their customers requests, they will become more profitable and retain/gain new and loyal customers.
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Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can lead to more business and brand loyalty.
hasoon2000 said:
We need to bug HTC to get what the people want. To do so, you can tweet them and email. Remember, be professional!
Twitter: @HTC and @HTCDev
Send them both tweets about releasing the source for the Amaze.
I tweeted Faux and he said this to me:
https://twitter.com/faux123/status/205121987000016896
Also, E-Mail them.
http://htcdev.com/contact
Tell them why we want it and how it will benefit us AND them.
Here is what I wrote:
Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can leave to more business and brand loyalty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Will do
Sent from my HTC Amaze 4G using XDA
ı did it
HTC responded to me
Dear Odai,
I understand you would like to have certain source codes like the WLAN drivers to the development community. I realize that this information is of great importance to you. The only source code we have available is the full source code available on the HTC Developer website at http://htcdev.com. We do not currently have an option to send individual parts of the source code separately. Any parts of the kernel source code that are not included in the released source code on the website should be considered propriety and not available for release. Please visit http://htcdev.com/contact to leave comments about this feature. I thank you for sending your email to HTC today.
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My response to that
Since HTC is committed to helping the development community, hence HTCDev has been started, there have been a fair share of issues that is being withheld from us. There has been a lack of support for certain devices since new flagship phones have been released. For example, the HTC Amaze 4G is a device with great hardware, but HTC has not given us full support due to the face of the HTC One series being released. As a business student, I understand what is being done. HTC would like their new flagship phones to sell and give less support to older devices. However, we are being left out and since this is my first non-Nokia device, I feel betrayed by HTC already. I purchased the Amaze 4G due to its hardware and I know it can unleash its true potential, only with the help of HTC. However, this is not the case. There are devices with over 10 custom made kernels and how many does the Amaze have? Only one and that is for Gingerbread and it has slight modifications since the full source has not be released. This is a huge setback to us users. We have barely any type of custom ROMs. We have not AOSP (Android Open Source Project) ROMs since we need the full kernel source to even make a kernel that is compatible with AOSP ROMs.
The Sensation development is sky high booming with plenty of developers. As a developer for the HTC Amaze 4G, looking at the Sensation development is heart breaking. The Amaze is truly better, but yet has no support from those who created it. It is like leaving a baby in the street. You do not do that.
HTC needs to realize for those who purchase their devices and would like to retain loyalty to HTC, HTC needs to treat their customers back as well. Without us, HTC is nothing.
As I stated earlier, this is my first Non-Nokia device and I already feel betrayed by HTC. If HTC cannot fix their act and be committed to those purchase their devices, they will lose customers significantly.
There should be a way to release the full source to us HTC Amaze 4G owners by talking to other companies that have their hardware in the Amaze. If that cannot be done, this will be my first and last HTC device ever.
So do what you can and stay committed to your program for us HTC users. Without your support, we feel betrayed since the company is not living up to their word. For us, it is hypocrisy while you guys believe it is business. The best business is customer support. If customers are not given what they have been truly promised, HTC might as well just shut down or reallocate to another industry. Just my opinions and my response.
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Just in case anyone needs some ideas on what to write. As Hasoon has said, don't copy and paste, make it legit!
As I hope others before me have sent an email to you regarding the same topic, I as well am writing to you in regards to the TI WLAN source code for the amaze that you have yet to release. I have been loyal to the HTC brand since the touch, and felt that your move to the development communities has been terrific, and have become quite involved with the development community myself, and look forward to help developing the amaze to its full potential and to have full freedom over the device. I know that there has been at least one statement released already regarding the WLAN driver's release, and that it is proprietary, and if that is the case, I'd like to get some more information regarding that statement, if/when you plan on ever releasing it, and why it is proprietary to begin with. There are many other devices out there that HTC has been very co-operative with, but fail to see why with the Amaze, a device that the way I see it is still extremely capable yet now not the hot phone to have, especially with your ONE line out, so the release of the driver would make sense to me, but withholding the code now does not. I hope this email along with others I hope are being sent regarding the same issue will persuade HTC to be as open as possible with the developers out there and show us that HTC still stands by its position to be a 'developer friendly' company.
The TI drivers source code belongs to Texas Instruments. HTC only has license to use it. TI is more of the root of problems. This kind of problems have been existing in linux community for life. Developers have to reverse engineering most of the drivers.
Should we maybe write TI about it instead?
JonathanBarca10 said:
Should we maybe write TI about it instead?
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We can do both. We have to pressure both companies.
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2
Does anybody know what TIs history is for something like this?
this is what i got back
Dear Xavier Veras,
Hello, Xavier, and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!
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EclipzeRemix said:
this is what i got back
Dear Xavier Veras,
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You can call bs on that.
One X source code is released.
Sensation Source code is released. ---> They got ICS 5 days after us
One V source code is released.
Respond back to them and tell them that. They are lying to the customers. How did other devices get it so quick when they say ICS is new?
You have to take the initiative.
hasoon2000 said:
You can call bs on that.
One X source code is released.
Sensation Source code is released. ---> They got ICS 5 days after us
One V source code is released.
Respond back to them and tell them that. They are lying to the customers. How did other devices get it so quick when they say ICS is new?
You have to take the initiative.
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Click to collapse
I replied this
That is false, the HTC One X,S, and V all got there kernel source, so did the HTC Sensation with Sense 3.6, and we got our update 5 days apart. Not only that but the Amaze is always let down with everything, we still dont have a WiFi source either. Tell HTC to get their act straight because I'm very likely to but another phone from another company soon. We need this source, I paid 500 dollars for a phone that I don't completely own because of the missing source. Thank you for your time but something has to be done
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2
EclipzeRemix said:
I replied this
That is false, the HTC One X,S, and V all got there kernel source, so did the HTC Sensation with Sense 3.6, and we got our update 5 days apart. Not only that but the Amaze is always let down with everything, we still dont have a WiFi source either. Tell HTC to get their act straight because I'm very likely to but another phone from another company soon. We need this source, I paid 500 dollars for a phone that I don't completely own because of the missing source. Thank you for your time but something has to be done
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using Tapatalk 2
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You want to call them out. You have to tell them basically you know your facts and you aren't stupid. Companies think customers are stupid (for the most part, they are right.) But you do have to tell them you know your stuff. I'm still waiting for them to respond to my second response.
EDIT: Apparently I overlooked this and thought it was an automated message.
They said
I appreciate you getting back with us; and I thank you for your input concerning the availability of the kernel source codes for our Android devices. I hope you have a nice day.
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My response right now was
I would like a response to what I have said. HTC has released source codes for the One X, One V, Sensation BUT not the Amaze. The Sensation has received the ICS update 5 days before the Amaze and they have their source code released. You totally blew off my last response and reasons like this is why I am disappointed with HTC. I am not surprised that HTC is not a BBB accredited business. With the way they handle customers, they really should shut down. Take care of customers and then they will take care of you. You guys apparently don't believe in that and it shows.
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Just read this. Apparently HTC releases source codes between 90 - 120 days
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1682917
I got my reply,
Dear Andy,
Thank you for contacting HTC Andy! I apologize that we do not have any information on when/if that driver will be released. The best place to look for updates on that information would be the htcdev.com website or Facebook/Twitter. Thank you for being a loyal HTC customer. We appreciate your commitment. I hope that you have a great day!
So basically I'm emailing my cousin, or uncle, because I would've gotten the same reply from them! What a joke, time to turn it up a notch.
edit: reply
I feel as if my original question was not answered, I'm contacting the company regarding an issue about their product, and felt as though I was getting a reply from a third party or someone unfamiliar with their own products. I'm looking for answers for the Amaze TI WLAN driver, and am requesting the release, or the date of release for that driver. Other phones in your product lineup have had their full source codes released, phones released before and after the Amaze, and in the case of the sensation, mere days after receiving its ICS update. I'm sure there is somebody I could either write or speak with that would be able to answer my question, I, along with many others in the development community feel it would be in HTC's best interests to release the driver. You would be helping those in the development community fully explore their devices, and in turn improve your company image as a top phone manufacturer and developer friendly company.
HTC's reply:
Thank you for getting back in touch with me Andy. I’m sorry that there was some confusion in our last email. As I stated before, we do not have any information on if or when the drivers will be released. Proprietary drivers are created by HTC for use on our phones and we are not by law, required to release the drivers. The open source codes are on the htcdev.com website but any drivers created by HTC, are property of HTC and will be released if we choose. HTC is committed to giving their customers the best experience possible so your concerns and requests have been noted. I apologize that we do not have any further information on if/when the drivers will be released but please check for updates on the htcdev.com website and/or Facebook and/or Twitter. I thank you for being a loyal HTC customer and I hope that you have a great day!
Booooooo
Done - the minute I read your post, Thanks
---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------
HTC's reply:
Thank you for getting back in touch with me Andy. I’m sorry that there was some confusion in our last email. As I stated before, we do not have any information on if or when the drivers will be released. Proprietary drivers are created by HTC for use on our phones and we are not by law, required to release the drivers. The open source codes are on the htcdev.com website but any drivers created by HTC, are property of HTC and will be released if we choose. HTC is committed to giving their customers the best experience possible so your concerns and requests have been noted. I apologize that we do not have any further information on if/when the drivers will be released but please check for updates on the htcdev.com website and/or Facebook and/or Twitter. I thank you for being a loyal HTC customer and I hope that you have a great day!
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Maybe they ripped off some other company's/persons source to create the Amaze - so cannot release it jk
The responded to my message.
I can definitely understand how the previous agent’s answer would make you upset. I’ll be glad to help you, Odai. By law, all that we are required to release is the kernel source code. HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC, as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
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My response
Samuel, thank you for responding. Danielle blew off my message and that is not great customer service. However, I see conflicting interests from messages I have been told as well as other. Some of the users have been told
"HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community."
Also, "Hello, (name omitted), and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!"
Why are the messages all conflicting? Some say it is not required, some say you have to wait 90 - 120 days when devices, like the Sensation, received the source code within 2 weeks of the ICS release. The management is either terrible or the staff is not properly trained.
Do you see why we are not happy with HTC? High Tech Computers is what HTC stands for, correct? HTC is also looking to help out the development community, correct? The only company that TRULY believes in the development community is Samsung. They acknowledged the work at XDA-Developers.com and they see how important it is to get in touch with those who love to customize their devices. Without releasing the source code to use so we can take advantage of OUR devices, you'll end up with unsatisfied customers and you will lose loyal customers. As a first time owner of an HTC device, I am pretty mad that I can't truly take advantage of it. I worked for T-Mobile for a few years and sold many HTC and Samsung phones. I always saw the Samsung owners are able to have full and true control of their devices. It is not the same however, with HTC.
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Remember folks! TAKE INITIATIVE! CALL THEM OUT! TELL THEM WHAT OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING! Be a man! lol
one more try:
There was no confusion with your first reply, I understand that HTC has no legal mandate to release anything it doesen't need to, so again, no confusion. What I am confused about is the reason the amaze driver has been held back, when other devices have had their full source codes released, and still there was no reason given as to why the WLAN driver can not be released. Other phone compaines out there like samsung seem to co-operate with developers better then HTC does, so its a shame that I can't get an answer for a simple question. And the reason provided, 'because we don't have to' isn't a good one, I'm sure there's a reason why, someone in the company must know something relating to this issue, and those in the development community are left in the dark on the topic. So no, there is no confusion regarding this topic, I fully understand HTC's stance on what is theirs and what is required by law, but considering your desire to be involved with development with HTCDEV.com, what I don't understand is why I can't get an answer that actually answers my question, a question directly relating to development. As you have said in the last reply I recieved, 'your concerns and requests have been noted', this lack of communication and understanding has also been noted by myself, and it will directly influence me on my next phone purchase.
Can I say progress?
Dear Odai,
Thanks for getting back to me, Odai. I’m honestly not sure why there is conflicting information. The first email that you quoted contains the correct information. The time frame that we generally release new kernels is 90 to 120 days. Though I don’t know why the Sensation’s source code was available so soon, there’s no reason I can see why the Amaze’s wouldn’t be released within the 90 to 120 time frame previously mentioned. Since the Amaze 4G is part of the bootloader unlock program, the latest source code will be posted to htcdev.com when available. Due to the inconsistency of the responses you’ve seen, I can definitely understand why you and others would be so unhappy. Personally, I’m going to do what I can to make sure this addressed and prevent conflicting and misinformation in the future. I agree with you that members of the developer community have the right to this information and only with that can they push their devices to the limit. If there’s anything else I can do for you, please let me know. Thanks again for taking the time to contact us and for being an HTC customer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My response
Samuel, I am glad that you have acknowledged the issues and the inconsistency in the messages we are given. I commend you for that.
As a Recognized Developer on XDA-Developers, as well as speaking on behalf of the Amaze 4G community, we would like HTC to work a deal with us. We need the source code, the full source code I should say, to help our development for the Amaze.
Reasons are as follows:
1. It will retain customer loyalty.
2. It will increase in sales/customer database.
3. Receiving a better name for the company.
I will explain how it will for each reason.
1. As I have stated, it will retain customer loyalty. When customers see the company taking care of them and fully addressing their issues, customers will be happy, even if the problem is not fixed. They see HTC cares and tries to do their best. HTC has well built all around devices and that is why customers continue purchasing HTC devices.
2. The sales number will increase. It may be a slight amount, but when customers enjoy their phones, they will continue purchasing the devices in the future. When I show my friends what my phone can do, it blows their mind. I have friends who purchase the phone I have because I show them what it can do and what their phones cannot do. Remember, the best advertisement is word-of-mouth.
3. A company should be a people company. HTC shows that they care about the development community by opening HTCDev. That is wonderful to see someone has been paying attention to us. Samsung does promotions specifically for XDA-Developers. They have truly recognized our community and they even hired a developer! HTC should see how big the customer base of XDA-Developers, CyanogenMod, RootzWiki and many other development websites/forums. When they show true interest in us, we will defend the company if someone speaks bad about it, etc.
All the reasons tie in with one another. Samuel, I believe you should pass our conversation along to the higher management. They should not blow our community off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you guys taking notes??
Well i started a thread about how we need source and everyones favorite mod sgt.slaughter came in and broke up the keyboard warrior fest and shed some light on us and told us to all start asking about source using the example of the folks in the 3d forums who teamed up to get a bootloader unlock which while its kinda half assed, at least they did something.
Many users interested in the development on HTC devices have recently been becoming more and more frustrated with HTC's policy on kernel source code releases. While other companys such as Samsung release their kernel source the same day as a phone is released or an update is pushed to a device, HTC follows a different path. HTC while is supporting development via their bootloader unlocking tools, which we are thankful for, they seem to not care when it comes to how long after an update is pushed or a phone is released that it takes them to release their source code. By doing this they are hindering development on their own devices and tempting developers to leave HTC and move on to Samsung due to the greater support for developers of samsung devices.
The GPL states that the source must be released within 14 of a request of such code. However, it doesn't state a grace period or a timeline for which it has to be released. HTC says that "HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days" (HTCDEV) and in this time they claim that they are still complying with the rules and regulations of the GPL v2.0. This wait is far too long however because after this time and they finally release the source code it may be out of date by 2 maybe 3 updates. This hinders the development on said devices because once a phone is updated, the only source they have to work with is outdated and may be either very hard to work into the new update or even impossible to use on the new software.
Others have alread tried to change the ways of HTC in the past with no success. The below quoted info is from the creator of gpl-violations.org (Harald Welte) and explains his attempts to alter HTC's policy with no success:
"There have been various reports and blog posts about HTC again committing copyright infringement by not fulfilling the GPLv2 license conditions in their latest Android phone, the G2.
While at this point I haven't studied the situation enough in order to confirm or deny any actual violations, let me state this: The number of GPL Violation reports/allegations that we receive at gpl-violations.org on HTC by far outnumber the reports that we have ever received about any other case or company.
In addition, HTC seems to have had a long trail of problems with GPL compliance in their devices. Ever since they have started to ship Android devices containing the Linux kernel, licensed under GPLv2+, we have received those reports.
The reason I have never taken any legal action is merely a result of the fact that HTC seems to first introduce their new devices in the US, then at some point release the corresponding source code before shipping those devices into Europe and Germany. So by the time the devices are sold over here, the legal issues appear to have been resolved before.
Nonetheless, I think it is outrageous for a company of this size and significance in the market to consistently commit copyright violation (or at least walk borderline with it) and thus mistreat the very copyright holders that have created the operating system kernel they use in their devices. The linux kernel developers and the Free Software community as a whole deserve fair treatment.
Also, the competitors of HTC deserve fair treatment: Samsung, e.g. is very forthcoming with their Android phone source code releases. If I was them and would see HTC to fail to comply with the GPL, I would consider filing a unfair competition lawsuit..." (Harald Welte)
This is a follow up post on his blog where he explains more:
"The Taiwanese smart phone maker HTC is widely known to be delaying its Linux kernel source code releases of their Android products. Initially, this has been described to to the requirement for source code review, and making sure that no proprietary portions are ending up in the release.
While the point is sort-of moot from the beginning (there should be no proprietary portions inside the Linux kernel for a product that wants to avoid entering any legal grey zone in the first place), I was willing to accept/tolerate it for some time.
At one point more than one year ago, gpl-violations.org actually had the opportunity to speak in person to senior HTC staff about this. I made it very clear that this delay is not acceptable, and that they should quickly fix their processes in order to make sure they reduce that delay, eventually down to zero.
Recently, I received news that the opposite is happening. HTC still has the same delays, and they are now actually claiming that even a 120 days delay is in compliance with the license.
I do think neither the paying HTC customers, nor tha Free Software community as a whole have to tolerate those delays. It is true that the GPLv2 doesn't list a deadline until when the source code has to be provided, but it is at the same also very clear what the license wants: To enable people to study the program source code. Especially in todays rapid smart phone product cycles, 120 days is a very long time.
So I hereby declare my patience has ended here. I am determined to bring those outrageous delays to an end. This will be one of my new year resolutions for 2012: Use whatever means possible to make HTC understand that this is not how you can treat Free Software, the community, its customers, the GPL and in the end, copyright itself." (Harald Welte)
The goal of this petition is not to bring down HTC but rather to have them change their ways when it comes to releasing source code. We would like to see source the same day as updates and phone releases so that developers can make use of this code; play with it, learn from it, and promote future development on HTC devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyway lets get to the point. Below there is links to their email, twitter, facebook, etc and you guys message them and post what you said below and i will add it to the op here so others can use that message.
also, as sgt.slaughter said, DONT ASK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN SOURCE. We need to stick to the point here. Don't threaten them or rage at them.
Spread this to other HTC Device forums that aren't getting source if you know of any, the more people we get to the better.
Mods i will update this as often as possible if people actually follow it so perhaps a temp sticky?
Also don't flood this with a bunch of "I won't buy HTC again" talk. It will just make this harder.
Petition Link
Link: http://www.change.org/petitions/htc-htc-needs-to-speed-up-kernel-source-releases?share_id=sLjvObpqne
Personal Contacts [thanks sgt.slaughter]
[email protected]; Senior Director Enterprise Business Unit Americas
[email protected]; Chairman
[email protected]; Chief Marketing Officer, HTC Corporation
[email protected]; Senior Public Relations Manager at HTC 425-679-5328
[email protected]; COO of HTC
[email protected]; Board Member of HTC
[email protected]; CEO
[email protected]; VP HTC
[email protected]; Chief Innovation Officer
Brent Groome, Chief Executive-Customer Operations, at 843-369-8393 or [email protected]
To email all of them at once, copy and paste this:
PHP:
[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected]
HTC
Twitter: https://twitter.com/htc
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/HTC
Email: http://www.htc.com/us/support/email-support
HTCDEV
Twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Facebook: Don't think they have one
Email: http://www.htcdev.com/contact
HTC USA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/HTCUSA
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/htcusa
Updates:
Today 8/9/12 i received an email back from HTC giving me the same B.S. they give everyone about the 90 days. Heres the email.
Dear Mike Malloy,
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding Kernel Source code. I know that this code is important to the development community and I will be happy to assist you with the correct information regarding this.
HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your week, Mike.
If this answers your comment or question, please click here to complete the process.
To submit another comment, please click here.
Sincerely,
The HTCDev Team
--------------------------- then i sent this
No where in the GPL does it state that you guys have 90 days to release the source code nor does it give you a grace period. you guys have the code already all that has to be done is a simple upload. samsung does it, motorola does it, why can't HTC release their code within a few days of an update? a petition is being started on xda-developers where there is a lot of people that feel the same way and it will only get bigger. you guys will be hearing a lot from us soon.
--------------------------------their reply
Dear Mike Malloy,
Thank you for your reply. Your feedback has been forwarded to the appropriate department for documentation. I hope you enjoy your week!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Quotes from you guys:
Racer Of All said:
Hello and thank you for writing in.
Since we are discussing the Linux Kernel, I will refer to version 2 of
the GPL. GPLv2 lays out the terms under which a party can distribute a
work in "object code or executable form" in section 3. The party in
question must do so in one of three ways, but for commercial entities
such as HTC only the first two are relevant: Accompany the binary with
the source (section 3.a), or accompany the binary with a written offer
to provide the source (section 3.b).
Complying with section 3 via subsection (a) is the fastest, safest and
easiest way since section 3 compliance is achieved immediately; you get
the binary and the source together. But according to your description
HTC has opted for section 3.b instead. It is true that section 3.b
doesn't spell out exactly how fast the offer for the corresponding
source code must be deal with, but note that it doesn't explicitly state
a grace-period either. So in order to be in compliance with distribution
under section 3.b, a timely response would be best.
I hope this answer is of help. If you have further questions, please
feel free to write back.
--
I am not a lawyer, the above is not legal advice
* *Regards, Your Name Here
Above is in reference to this post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29932331&postcount=27
A whole bunch or useful information thanks to Racer of All :http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29940548&postcount=9
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
premo15 said:
Hello,
I am writing to address the current business practice adopted by HTC in which source code is made available to the development community up to 120 days after the official consumer release. While I am a staunch supporter of HTC and its products, I feel that collaboration with the development community can be somewhat lacking in comparison with other manufactures in the same market space. For example, Samsung frequently releases source code prior to or at the same time as the official consumer release of their products and OTA updates. As a result, the open source development for their devices is able to advance much more quickly in comparison to the competing HTC handsets. I have seen this particular issue cause frustration with other users and developers and has influenced some to switch from the EVO 4G LTE to the Samsung Galaxy S3 in order to enjoy the comparatively expedited release of source code from the manufacturer.
I believe one of the main strengths of the Android platform is its open source nature and the fact that there are so many developers willing to provide features and enhancements for those that desire them. Many users share this belief and it is a key factor in their decision to purchase an Android handset. However, in order for the development community to thrive, a timely release of source code is needed. I personally would like to see HTC devices become even more pervasive and I believe that adhering to the GNU General Public License by releasing source code at the same time as, or even prior to, the generally available OTAs would greatly increase the likelihood of acheiving this.
Thank you for your time.
Original Post: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=29951917&postcount=13
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been posting this on their facebook walls fee free to use it.
----------------------------
HTC when are you going to follow the GPL and stop using the 90 day excuse? No where does the GPL state that you have 90 days to release it nor does it give a grace period. Use samsung as an example. They release their source code within a few hours of an update if not prior to one. Why can't you do the same? All that your hesitation causes is frustration among the developer community and hinder development for your devices. We know you take some ideas from us because you have decided to swap the recent apps key and use it as a menu which the developers have done on the evo lte within a week of the phones release. We scratch your back, you scratch ours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In order to get the sweeping changes we want (to get source released as soon as device is dropped like samsung does) we will need more than our EVO 4G LTE users.
We need all HTC users behind this. Anyway we can get this up on their sections of the forum as well?
true, perhaps submit this to the xda portal and then maybe expand to other sites such as engadget? i already started spreading it to themikmik but only in the evo lte section so far. add me on google talk and we will collaborate. ill send my email via pm
I posted a section on android forums where I am a guide. I'll spread the word there.
I'll hit you up tomorrow
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
ive sent messages to rootzwiki, themikmik, and xda portal to see if they will write about this and help spread the word. for now im going to bed since its 2a.m.
I emailed AP, lets see.
Hopefully this catches on when everyone sees this thread tomorrow.
This needs to be done/
Rxpert said:
I emailed AP, lets see.
Hopefully this catches on when everyone sees this thread tomorrow.
This needs to be done/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will try to get this done this afternoon when I come home from work.
I passed the word on to android central.
nice job!
need to toss in examples of how HTC is failing compared to the other manufacturers in terms of time they release source...cite Samsung and Motorola and time of OTA released to devices, and then time they released their source code...Show HTC that they are the ONLY one's playing this 90day rule bs crap and its hurting the development community greatly, in turn causing people to leave...
I will be sending emails to the aforementioned news sources as well as my tech friends. It really is a shame companies like HTC can get away with violating the GPL like this. If only we could convince a person with copyright on part of the Linux kernel to join our ranks we could win overnight
Oh in addition to the above email I send them I also found another one that was between a head dev of red hat Linux, I'll see if I can dig it up.
EDIT: Found it, post by Matthew Garrett, developer of red hat linux posted the next couple of entries. They are very interesting reads about the entire situation:
HTC is Willfully Violating the GPL by Matthew Garrett:
As has been discussed before, HTC have a somewhat "interesting" interpretation of the GPL that allows them to claim they don't need to provide source code until between 90 and 120 days after the release of binaries. It's probably noteworthy that the FSF (who, you know, wrote the license and all) disagree with this interpretation, as do the kernel copyright holders (who, you know, wrote the code that the license covers) I've talked to about it. Anyway, after a pile of screaming and shouting from all sides HTC have tended to release their source code in a timely manner. So things seemed better.
HTC released the Thunderbolt last week and we're back to the 90-120 day song and dance. It's probably worth remembering that by behaving in this way HTC gain a competitive advantage over any vendors who obey the terms of their license - HTC can incorporate improvements made by others without releasing their own until through a significant portion of the lifecycle of their phone.
As far as I'm concerned, every single Thunderbolt sold so far embodies a copyright infringement. Wilfully engaging in copyright infringement for commercial benefit is typically frowned upon by courts, especially if by doing so a foreign company is gaining commercial advantage over a domestic one. If you think Microsoft's patent assault on Android is a problem, just imagine what they could do if they hired one significant Linux kernel developer and used their copyrights to attack the overwhelming majority of Android vendors who fail to comply with the GPL. It probably wouldn't be industry ending (companies would merely have improve their compliance procedures) but it'd do a huge deal of damage in the short term. It's insane for companies to behave this way. Don't reward them by giving them your money.
I'll be talking about this at the Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit next month, along with an update on my study of the compliance of Android tablets. I'm hoping that there'll be further developments after that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These two entries are also by Matthew Garrett but they're more a generalized point of view about GPL violations in general and why it's an incentive to do so:
The economic incentive to violate the GPL
The ongoing fight against GPL enforcement
Also let me make this clear (because I've seen people bring this up before): people here aren't complaining that without source we can't do anything or that our devs REQUIRE it. The point is that the Linux kernel is licensed under the GPL and that our devs SHOULDN'T NEED to work without it. It's free open sourced code. We don't care for the "but HTC has hundreds of phones to support please give them [email protected]!" argument either. The GPL is pretty clear, you can use anything licensed under it but if you release a commercial product with it, source MUST be released and source code is easier to distribute than the binary they built using it. It's a non-issue for them.
Sorry for the massive edit. I just love open source software and the advantages it provides for technology and by proxy -- society. I mean, open source is literally everywhere and I can't stand companies with big bucks being able to "buy" their way out of what open source stands for. If you use something licensed under the GPL you MUST provide source. You don't have a day, you don't have a week. You have to either release it alongside the binary or provide it upon request.
I'm done
Sent from my Nexus 7
Glad to wake up and see this thread!
Thanks for getting this going. But it may be difficult without a direct line to one of the higher-ups. It's taken HTC 3 weeks (and counting) to tell me if the EVO's wifi radio can support channel bonding and short guard intervals on the 5ghz band...which I assumed would be an easy, straight forward question. So that doesn't bode well for a hefty request such as this. Nonetheless, I will join you.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Give me source or give me death!!
Sent from my EVO using xda app-developers app
Getting ready to send my message out to HTC, how's the tone? Any critiques?
Hello,
I am writing to address the current business practice adopted by HTC in which source code is made available to the development community up to 120 days after the official consumer release. While I am a staunch supporter of HTC and its products, I feel that collaboration with the development community can be somewhat lacking in comparison with other manufactures in the same market space. For example, Samsung frequently releases source code prior to or at the same time as the official consumer release of their products and OTA updates. As a result, the open source development for their devices is able to advance much more quickly in comparison to the competing HTC handsets. I have seen this particular issue cause frustration with other users and developers and has influenced some to switch from the EVO 4G LTE to the Samsung Galaxy S3 in order to enjoy the comparatively expedited release of source code from the manufacturer.
I believe one of the main strengths of the Android platform is its open source nature and the fact that there are so many developers willing to provide features and enhancements for those that desire them. Many users share this belief and it is a key factor in their decision to purchase an Android handset. However, in order for the development community to thrive, a timely release of source code is needed. I personally would like to see HTC devices become even more pervasive and I believe that adhering to the GNU General Public License by releasing source code at the same time as, or even prior to, the generally available OTAs would greatly increase the likelihood of acheiving this.
Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
premo15 said:
Getting ready to send my message out to HTC, how's the tone? Any critiques?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cent review? Leave out the first paragraph entirely and just send the second. The tone is good, and it says everything you want to say while still being quick and to the point.
fachadick said:
My 2 cent review? Leave out the first paragraph entirely and just send the second. The tone is good, and it says everything you want to say while still being quick and to the point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Na they need to hear it from customers that they recognize that HTC's competitors are releasing their source code much earlier. leave that stuff in there...
sgt. slaughter said:
Na they need to hear it from customers that they recognize that HTC's competitors are releasing their source code much earlier. leave that stuff in there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough, but do you really think that they don't already know that the other guys are releasing their source code earlier? I think that first paragraph creates a "Samsung is better than you guys" tone that will unnecessarily put them on the defensive in a marketing and pr sense. It will make them address the email as if it's an htc vs samsung scenario, instead of keeping the focus on releasing source earlier and following gpl guidelines. My $0.02 anyway.
fachadick said:
Fair enough, but do you really think that they don't already know that the other guys are releasing their source code earlier? I think that first paragraph creates a "Samsung is better than you guys" tone that will unnecessarily put them on the defensive in a marketing and pr sense. It will make them address the email as if it's an htc vs samsung scenario, instead of keeping the focus on releasing source earlier and following gpl guidelines. My $0.02 anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I recall thats how we took the bootloader unlock to them too...Samsung allows unlocking, and HTC used to not be encrypted at least....then they encrypted and all hell broke loose, and their facebook was completely blowing up for weeks straight....so much that they couldnt' manage all the negative posts on there and eventually released a comment on it and changed their ways...
working on starting a petition now. will update the op with it shortly.
EDIT: still working on it. i set one up but i think it has to be approved first before being put on their site. will update as soon as possible
premo15 said:
Thanks for getting this going. But it may be difficult without a direct line to one of the higher-ups. It's taken HTC 3 weeks (and counting) to tell me if the EVO's wifi radio can support channel bonding and short guard intervals on the 5ghz band...which I assumed would be an easy, straight forward question. So that doesn't bode well for a hefty request such as this. Nonetheless, I will join you.
Sent from my EVO LTE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
got that covered, check the op. has direct contacts now
My canned response from HTC DEV
:Thank you for contacting HTC regarding Kernel Source code. I know that this code is important to the development community and I will be happy to assist you with the correct information regarding this.
HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your week
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
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you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
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I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
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No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
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Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
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RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
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Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
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orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
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Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
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Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
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+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
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Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
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Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
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What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
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hi guys as some of you know a few of us are trying to port various roms to the htc one max, however this is proving very difficult as we do not have the kernel source code which is the main thing stopping us. Recently i have tweeted at @HTCDev on twitter asking them if and when they plan to release them, and i figured that many voices are stronger than 1 so if lots of people tweet @HTCDev we might have a standing chance of getting them just an idea !
you might have seen the other thread from which involved emailing HTC about the same thing and we did not get much of response there.. we can surely do this, but don't know if that will help
@PradeepVizz 16s
@htcdev hello, when can we expect the kernel sources for the MAX to be available for downloads?
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Yo whaddup whaddup pradeep.... Yo so to everyone and all I'm back! Sorry I took a little holiday break from posting and what not lol.. So I officially went out and bought a brand new hefty solid state drive some new ram and a nice little dev box and installed my favorite Linny dis Fedora! It's all set up for strictly Android development and Android development only!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who is down to do some work with me for all variants I'm specifically Verizon but I'll work on all of them with you guys feel free to hit me up..
As for the kernel source I spoke directly to Shauna from HTCDev on the phone as she called me twice until she actually got me cuz I lol screen my calls and when realized it was her again I answered.. When anyone sends an email through HTCDev "tell us what you want" it goes directly to her, so we actually established a relationship haha.. She told me for every email I sent and for all the emails I encouraged you guys to send that she pings corporate. Corp then sends them the source and they go ahead and upload it. She basically told me not to expect anything until as early as January 2nd when they start coming back from vacation from the holidays.. So it is coming, they are fully aware that it needs to be posted and they are indeed working on it for us..
So yes like I said I'm ready to go so hit me up peeps.....
pradeepvizz said:
you might have seen the other thread from which involved emailing HTC about the same thing and we did not get much of response there.. we can surely do this, but don't know if that will help
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Murrda said:
Yo whaddup whaddup pradeep.... Yo so to everyone and all I'm back! Sorry I took a little holiday break from posting and what not lol.. So I officially went out and bought a brand new hefty solid state drive some new ram and a nice little dev box and installed my favorite Linny dis Fedora! It's all set up for strictly Android development and Android development only!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who is down to do some work with me for all variants I'm specifically Verizon but I'll work on all of them with you guys feel free to hit me up..
As for the kernel source I spoke directly to Shauna from HTCDev on the phone as she called me twice until she actually got me cuz I lol screen my calls and when realized it was her again I answered.. When anyone sends an email through HTCDev "tell us what you want" it goes directly to her, so we actually established a relationship haha.. She told me for every email I sent and for all the emails I encouraged you guys to send that she pings corporate. Corp then sends them the source and they go ahead and upload it. She basically told me not to expect anything until as early as January 2nd when they start coming back from vacation from the holidays.. So it is coming, they are fully aware that it needs to be posted and they are indeed working on it for us..
So yes like I said I'm ready to go so hit me up peeps.....
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welcome back mate! Hope you had a great vacation! Happy new year to you and everyone around!
Excited to know your dev setup, I have got virtual box for Ubuntu 12.10 ready for the same. Thanks for the update. I am no kernel dev but want to start kicking things and yeah got some great support from you and the other guys.
There was another dev who left the device a few days ago, not sure what the reason was
The worst part i suspect is going to be after KitKat Update, which is like about 1 month away and we need to repeat the waiting again for that :/
Thanks for update! keep rocking!!!
Well as long as we get some type of source and better it being 4.3 source I'm sure Flyhalf won't have to much of a problem building us a solid CM11 using this sources.. I believe its pretty much what he did with the original HTC One but this was also on Verizon which is what I'm on.. Either way we should hopefully be getting somewhere very soon!!
Sent a "Tell us what your Want" to HTCDev. Tracking # 3936471
I also have a case open with HTC dev
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
Murrda said:
Yo whaddup whaddup pradeep.... Yo so to everyone and all I'm back! Sorry I took a little holiday break from posting and what not lol.. So I officially went out and bought a brand new hefty solid state drive some new ram and a nice little dev box and installed my favorite Linny dis Fedora! It's all set up for strictly Android development and Android development only!!!!!!!!!! Anyone who is down to do some work with me for all variants I'm specifically Verizon but I'll work on all of them with you guys feel free to hit me up..
As for the kernel source I spoke directly to Shauna from HTCDev on the phone as she called me twice until she actually got me cuz I lol screen my calls and when realized it was her again I answered.. When anyone sends an email through HTCDev "tell us what you want" it goes directly to her, so we actually established a relationship haha.. She told me for every email I sent and for all the emails I encouraged you guys to send that she pings corporate. Corp then sends them the source and they go ahead and upload it. She basically told me not to expect anything until as early as January 2nd when they start coming back from vacation from the holidays.. So it is coming, they are fully aware that it needs to be posted and they are indeed working on it for us..
So yes like I said I'm ready to go so hit me up peeps.....
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hey all! how have you been? the kernel source situation is getting a bit ridiculous! we are about to get the 4.4 update in a few weeks and still don't have the source code for 4.3, i can't imagine the wait we are going to have to go through for the 4.4 source code!
Yep. I have sent about 27 request to HTC Dev. The Answer is the same. "We have escalated your issue to Tier 2 for "Tracking".
I responded back saying.. I don't care about tracking.. I want to know when they will honor the GPL for release of the kernel.
The answer is "Sorry we do not have a ETA for the release of the kernel. Please keep an eye on our htcdev.com site and the sources will be posted there when released."
So I took to twitter and have been calling them out there asking for GPL compliance for the HTC One Max Kernel Source for both 4.3 now and 4.4 upon deployment.
Newest Email after I have been raising hell on twitter.
Dear Deadphoenix,
It is really nice to hear from you.
Deadphoenix, I totally understand what you are saying and in this case this situation, due to policies, needs to be handle by a higher department and that is why that I am asking you for your contact number, this will help me in order to pass this to the right department.
Please let me know this information and I will be more than glad to help you with this.
Have an amazing Wednesday, Deadphoenix.
Thanks for the effort mate
Here is my most recent email I sent to HTC Dev:
Hello,
From information I gathered from the Free Software Foundation (authors of the GPL) about this (as well as some other folks I know that have a better legal background than I), and I compiled the following information for you.
Brett Smith at the Free Software Foundation said, in response to your recent claims that the GPL provides for a delay: "HTC's reading is outrageous -- we honestly thought no respectable company would have the gall to publicly make this argument. A delay of 90-120 days is not reasonable, considering that they must already have the source code.". Clearly, then, the authors of the GPL did not intend for any provision for a delay to be present.
Other legally-trained acquaintances commented that allowing a delay there would easily lead to reductio ad absurdum -- i.e., if an arbitrary delay could be inserted in this contract (which HTC agreed to upon releasing the binary), then that would imply that an arbitrary delay could be inserted in any contract. In most legal cases, it has been shown that if something can be read as either being absurd or not being absurd, the not-absurd reading is the one legally taken.
You mentioned 3(b) of the GPL, which begins that you must "accompany [the binary distribution] with a written offer, valid for at least three years [...] a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code", and it seems that the second clause there -- "valid for at least three years" is the crux of it. Currently, the distribution does come with an offer, but the offer is not valid -- when I asked for the source code, HTC was unable to provide it for me, claiming instead that it would be given to me at an unspecified point in the future. This is not acceptable.
I note also that legal interpretations of a work tend to consider not just the strictly written details, but the intent; when details are in dispute, the overall intent is then referred to. The goal of the GNU GPL is to enhance the freedoms of anyone who receives the software, and to force one who might modify the software and distribute it for their own purposes to publish their changes back to the community. The GNU GPL does not have any provisions for temporarily withholding source for competitive or other reasons; the agreement that one must make when one distributes a binary is that one must also distribute source. Not doing so at the same time would be a violation, not just of the letter, but of the spirit of the contract; the goal of the GNU GPL is to enrich the freedoms of the commons through which software is distributed.
Given these four points -- the FSF's reading, the reductio ad absurdum, the letter of section 3(b) of the GPL, and the spirit of the GPL as a whole -- it is clear that the GPL requires that HTC release the source for the kernel at the same time or earlier than the binary. To that end, I request that you, within 24 hours, provide me with a link to the source for kernel of the HTC One Max 4.3 as well as the 4.4 Kernel upon release of the binary to the public.
It is clear from the reading and intention of the GPL that HTC is currently in violation of the GPL requirements of making the Kernel Source available. I have a cc'd copy of this message prepared for the media outlets as well in anticipation of HTC's denial again of the Source Code. If you are unable to assist me please escalate my message to the appropriate authority capable of making the decision to comply with GPL.
Sincerely and Seriously,
hopefully, somebody who reads and speaks english will get your email..
nicely worded!
:good::good:
wase4711 said:
hopefully, somebody who reads and speaks english will get your email..
nicely worded!
:good::good:
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mate, that email is quite old, dates back to days of EVO days - http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
but still a good effort by @DeadPhoenix to send HTC the email.
pradeepvizz said:
mate, that email is quite old, dates back to days of EVO days - http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
but still a good effort by @DeadPhoenix to send HTC the email.
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Yep. That's the source. I use it for my response to HTC when they reply that there is no set limit to release source.
sneaky....but hopefully effective!
wase4711 said:
sneaky....but hopefully effective!
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Supposedly someone from HTCDev Support Tier 2 is calling me today about a GPL discussion.
We shall see.
Don't forget to ask for 4.4 lol
DeadPhoenix said:
Supposedly someone from HTCDev Support Tier 2 is calling me today about a GPL discussion.
We shall see.
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Good luck with that sir. From everything I've ever heard about this, it seems that HTC thinks that a 60-120 day grace period is acceptable, and that's all there is to it.
By all means though, fight the good fight. I've just resigned myself to heckling their marketing team about it on Google +.
What you're doing is probably more "constructive" though...
Sent from my HTC6600LVW using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
belly of the beast said:
Good luck with that sir. From everything I've ever heard about this, it seems that HTC thinks that a 60-120 day grace period is acceptable, and that's all there is to it.
By all means though, fight the good fight. I've just resigned myself to heckling their marketing team about it on Google +.
What you're doing is probably more "constructive" though...
Sent from my HTC6600LVW using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Suprise... suprise they didn't call yet.