Say I lose my phone, and I pick up another Mogul online or something, could I edit my old ESN into the new phone through ##778# ?
This is something I've been wondering about for years, but never knew how to access that menu on other phones..
-mak
you won't be able to do it via ##778# it will require another software and edit the $ESN.SYS file and all of that is illegal to do
You can always just call your carrier and activate it... I did that many times with Sprint for free, I have 12 Palm Treo 600's I rotate through as disposable phones.
I realize they'll do it for free, and illegal doesn't bother me.. I just wanted to know if it could be done.
On another note; why would it be illegal, if I owned the original phone and the new phone? I could see the carrier looking down upon it, but I'm sure they wouldn't be happy knowing I'm running a Sprint ROM on my Qwest phone either.. or that I'm able to access the previously locked out GPS chip.. but why is it illegal?
-mak
.mak said:
.. but why is it illegal?
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Click to collapse
Because the FCC says so (in the US).
http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations_3&id=cellular
Fraud
Cellular fraud is defined as the unauthorized use, tampering, or manipulation of a cellular phone or service. Cellular industry estimates indicate that carriers lose millions per year to cellular fraud, with the principal cause being subscription fraud. Subscriber fraud occurs when a subscriber signs up for service with fraudulently obtained customer information or false identification.
In the past, cloning of cellular phones was a major concern. A cloned cellular telephone is one that has been reprogrammed to transmit the electronic serial number (ESN) and telephone number (MIN) belonging to another (legitimate) cellular telephone. Unscrupulous persons obtain valid ESN/MIN combinations by illegally monitoring the transmissions from the cellular telephones of legitimate subscribers. Each cellular telephone is supposed to have a unique factory-set ESN. After cloning, however, because both cellular telephones have the same ESN/MIN combination, cellular systems cannot distinguish the cloned cellular telephone from the legitimate one.
The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation. The Wireless Telephone Protection Act (Public Law 105-172) was signed into law on April 24, 1998, expanding the prior law to criminalize the use, possession, manufacture or sale of cloning hardware or software. The cellular equipment manufacturing industry has deployed authentication systems that have proven to be a very effective countermeasure to cloning. Authentication supplements the use of the ESN and MIN with a changing encrypted code that can not be obtained by off-the-air monitoring.
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http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations_5&id=cellular
Multiple Phones With Same Number
A subscriber may have multiple phones with the same telephone number. However, there are restrictions. Each individual phone must have a unique Electronic Serial Number (ESN). The ESN is a unique number programmed into each cellular telephone at the time it is manufactured and is used by the cellular carrier to identify a telephone to determine whether the user of that phone is entitled to obtain service and to insure that the proper accounting is made of all activity. Most cellular phone emulators or extension services simply "clone" cellular phones, duplicating not only the telephone number but also the ESN. The Commission considers any knowing use of cellular telephone with an altered ESN to be a violation of the Communications Act (Section 301) and alteration of the ESN in a cellular telephone to be assisting in such violation.
It is possible to obtain two cellular phones with the same telephone number as long as the cellular carrier in the market has the software in place to handle the billing and its fraud detection system won't be triggered by the use of two phones with the same phone number.
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Short answer to your question without the legal BS people like to answer, no, it's currently impossible to alter the ESN on the msm7500 chip, however we are working on it.
Can you say QXDM ?
Shadowmite said:
Short answer to your question without the legal BS people like to answer, no, it's currently impossible to alter the ESN on the msm7500 chip, however we are working on it.
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Click to collapse
Qualcomm Extensible Diagnostic Monitor, really not sure why they chose that name because it does a lot more than monitor. I was a Qualcomm wmployee and still have QXDM and new chipset support, is pretty cool.
On my Sprint account I can do an online ESN swap. I'm seriously considering getting a second phone for times I need something more reliable than my Mogul.
madman34 said:
Qualcomm Extensible Diagnostic Monitor, really not sure why they chose that name because it does a lot more than monitor. I was a Qualcomm wmployee and still have QXDM and new chipset support, is pretty cool.
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Click to collapse
QXDM can not alter the esn, go ahead and try. Hell, I'd like to see you extract the 16 byte rotating key needed to authenticate to it considering you seem to indicate you're so "capable"... What's the algo this time around, considering it's been changed from the other devices we had this reversed for?
After posting last time in this thread, I remembered that ESN stood for Electronic Serial Number.. but thanks for the replies.
Soooo.. my next question is; How is it that one can use a (for example..) Sprint Mogul on Verizon or Qwest.. realizing that the phones are basically identical, unlocking them leaves the ability to put another carriers proprietary software on the phone, but isn't the ESN tied to that specific carrier? (e.g; a Sprint Mogul's ESN is tied to Sprint, and could not be used with Verizon for this very reason..).
Looking forward to your replies
-mak
ESN range
.mak said:
After posting last time in this thread, I remembered that ESN stood for Electronic Serial Number.. but thanks for the replies.
Soooo.. my next question is; How is it that one can use a (for example..) Sprint Mogul on Verizon or Qwest.. realizing that the phones are basically identical, unlocking them leaves the ability to put another carriers proprietary software on the phone, but isn't the ESN tied to that specific carrier? (e.g; a Sprint Mogul's ESN is tied to Sprint, and could not be used with Verizon for this very reason..).
Looking forward to your replies
-mak
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You are correct, the units are electrically the same and any could be used on any carrier, except for the non CDMA that is, but the barrier is that the carriers as of the last time I looked know by the ESN that it is not one of theirs and probably will not activate it, maybe now will but did not used to. It is a company/carrier rule as opposed to a technical barrier.
Well perhaps, I have not done the 6800
Shadowmite said:
QXDM can not alter the esn, go ahead and try. Hell, I'd like to see you extract the 16 byte rotating key needed to authenticate to it considering you seem to indicate you're so "capable"... What's the algo this time around, considering it's been changed from the other devices we had this reversed for?
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Click to collapse
Anyway, if you have the latest QXDM and it will not, then I must yield, but my Sanyo units from a few years ago, obviously older chipset, with the QXDM I shuffled routinely the ESN. I went fron one model to the next serveral times, last one being the 5500 phone on Sprint and changed the ESN to that of my older Sanyo. As I recall, there was a 16 byte key that you entered to unlock the protected storage and then it would let you enter a replacement ESN into the field, and I suppose it (the tool) generated everything else. The 16 byte key for each chipset was retreived from our internal web page on the corperate intranet and it always worked. If that has changed and newer versions of the QXDM no longer support this function then what a drag it is. I have had no real need to do it for serveral years so I could not say, but I do not see why it should have changed, but maybe so, in any case i see no need to get nasty about it. I was simply relating past experience.
http://www.mobile-files.com/forum/showpost.php?p=355427&postcount=73
Just got that tonight... It appears you are correct qxdm could do it, once some other variables are ready. Wasn't trying to be nasty about it, I've been working on this for 2 weeks on and off now.
Loaded up QXDM and looked around
Shadowmite said:
http://www.mobile-files.com/forum/showpost.php?p=355427&postcount=73
Just got that tonight... It appears you are correct qxdm could do it, once some other variables are ready. Wasn't trying to be nasty about it, I've been working on this for 2 weeks on and off now.
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Click to collapse
Wowsers, what a trip down amnesia lane for me tonight, as you got me curious so I went and got the new QXDM and it is amazing how much different it looks than the version I remember useing on my old Sanyo. I found that the NV browser is still there and still has the 'write' button when you highlight the esn field and hit read the correct esn does appear. I will, however, leave pushing the shiney 'write' button to you, as my 6800 works gooooooood and I want it to stay that way ;-) hehehhehe. Hey I just this second got a flash,,,,,,,I have my 6700 still from when I ported over from Sprint. I should maybe mess with that one because I do not use it anymore and have religated it to the dumper anyway. Should I give it a whack ???????
P.S. On a side note, Sarchasm (for humor sake) I have not got the hang of it in text mode,,,,,,,by 'Nasty' , I meant like in wink wink nudge nudge ha ha sort of ;-)
P.P.S. Did you know that the Nortel MTX (Sprint, VZW, Alltel use) is capeable of having multiple phones (different esn's or course) with the same phone number if they want ? The switch techs at Alltel market where I work at sometimes have their belt clip phones, their tech pool phone, and 3 of the hi power bag phones (out in the sticks of kansas) all on the same number. They all ring at the same time and the first to answer gets the call. I do not remember the table you datafill, but it is interesting, and would be nice if they would let us use our number on our 6800 and a backup phone also, in case we kill it ;-)
You can alter the ESN using software, there are specific softwares that will allow you to do this. But you first have to put your phone in diag mode.
Ive done this to my sprint mogul, after flashing my esn went to all 0's for whatever reason, so i had to find a way to rewrite my esn to get it to be recognized by sprint.
So yes it is possible to change your esn. Illegal for the cloning issues but possible and quite doable.
uperCID and Change E*N of Mogul may also work for Touch / Vogue (But it sayd Invalid Command Boot Loader may not supporting in Touch)
http://www.mobile-files.com/forum/showpost.php?p=355534&postcount=82
Just have a look
any software which uses nv_write method for ESN can change ESN
I have used CDMAWorkShop 2.7 cracked
madman34: that write button won't work in normal mode, it'll throw a error about esn being read only... that's what we had to work around.
Yep you are right
Shadowmite said:
madman34: that write button won't work in normal mode, it'll throw a error about esn being read only... that's what we had to work around.
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Click to collapse
But I did mess with my old 6700 and even with the QPST I was able to change the ESN and figured the checksum and put in VZW PRL then a *228 and now my 6700 is my 6800, but will only be used as a safety in case i brick my 6800. I feel better being able to have somthing to use while I play with my 6800.
Thanks a million time to Shadomite
He had Cracked and changed the ESN
I have POsted the Simplified Method Just have a look
http://www.mobile-files.com/forum/showpost.php?p=355534&postcount=82
Is there a relatively simple step by step method to do this ESN thing with the PPC 6700 on sprint?
I already have a working PPC 6700 I have TWO MORE but they are "bad esn"
I want to use them as backups for mine. If mine fails gets broken whatever I can just use one of the backups (I really like this phone)
No cloning or any nefarious purpose. Just want to use the hardware I bought. The bad ESN phones are sprint 6700's
This might be a stupid question to ask from a this type of community but the Chinese knock-offs or the endgadget term 'KIRF' phones
The sciphone N19
The sciphone N21
Aphone A6
Are these really android?
and if so arnt they upgradable to, for instance Android 2.0
and cant they be flashed with roms from other devices? (I'm kind of new to this and I dont really know what a 'rom' is, yet!)
Their only imitations. Which means the hardware inside is different. So you won't be able to flash a ROM designed for a G1 for example since the imitation and the G1 have different hardware (drivers)....
You might be able to install an updated android system assuming it's not a lookalike system, for example a regular Nokia OS with it's "Face Painted" to look like android lol. Also remember, the hardware inside it probably bare minimum to just run what it came with....
the video
but this looks pretty convincing that its android, isn't it?
kurt.hewett said:
but this looks pretty convincing that its android, isn't it?
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It might actually be android. You probably won't be able to use the custom roms you find here because of hardware differences but it looks like it's running an actual android system. Remember android is Open Source so it's even easier/cheaper for the Chinese to do this, lol...
i wouldnt buy any of these phones...not even for 50€
> i wouldnt buy any of these phones...not even for 50€
From what I've seen, an Android phone intended for the Chinese domestic market...
* Would be "rooted out of the box". They wouldn't even bother to try protecting it.
* Would be electronically compatible with two dozen other Chinese domestic Android phones. They might have different button layouts, screen sizes, batteries, and build quality, but the biggest single thing driving their firmware would be the manufacturer's ability to slap one of Google's reference builds into it more or less verbatim.
* Would put most American and European phones to shame insofar as aesthetics go. Cheap Chinese stuff might have nonexistent build quality, but even the lowest-quality crap to come out of an anonymous factory somewhere in Harbin or Chonggqing is going to look attractive, if not downright cool.
* Almost without a doubt, would be the most feature-packed ghetto-fabulous phone you could pull out of your pocket anywhere in America. Nothing on the phone might work reliably (or for more than 3 months before breaking), but if there's a feature you can pack into a phone... it'll be there.
* If you were fluent in Mandarin or Cantonese, and stumbled across one in China, it would probably be so cheap, you could buy two spares for less than it would cost to insure a PDA phone for a year and pay one replacement deductible for any carrier in the US.
Speaking of which... check out dealextreme.com if you want to see some crazy stuff you can buy directly from China. I've bought about a hundred bucks worth of stuff from them over the past year, and I've grown to be rather fond of them. They have a ton of phones I've never really looked at too closely since none of the phones they sell will ever work on Sprint, but they might have something Android-ready if you're in Europe or can live with EDGE-only in the US (I seriously doubt any phone sold in China today can do 1700/2200 or 850/850 UMTS). I'm still laughing about their "iFhone" models, or the phone running some unknown OS (probably some flavor of LiMo) that looks like A brown European Hero... or the "NOKLA N95"
mrandroid said:
It might actually be android. You probably won't be able to use the custom roms you find here because of hardware differences but it looks like it's running an actual android system. Remember android is Open Source so it's even easier/cheaper for the Chinese to do this, lol...
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Click to collapse
They are real Android, period. We can make any kind of WM/Android GSM mobiles under USD$100! Just figure out how much HTC gain on you guys!
miamicanes said:
> i wouldnt buy any of these phones...not even for 50€
From what I've seen, an Android phone intended for the Chinese domestic market...
* Would be "rooted out of the box". They wouldn't even bother to try protecting it.
* Would be electronically compatible with two dozen other Chinese domestic Android phones. They might have different button layouts, screen sizes, batteries, and build quality, but the biggest single thing driving their firmware would be the manufacturer's ability to slap one of Google's reference builds into it more or less verbatim.
* Would put most American and European phones to shame insofar as aesthetics go. Cheap Chinese stuff might have nonexistent build quality, but even the lowest-quality crap to come out of an anonymous factory somewhere in Harbin or Chonggqing is going to look attractive, if not downright cool.
* Almost without a doubt, would be the most feature-packed ghetto-fabulous phone you could pull out of your pocket anywhere in America. Nothing on the phone might work reliably (or for more than 3 months before breaking), but if there's a feature you can pack into a phone... it'll be there.
* If you were fluent in Mandarin or Cantonese, and stumbled across one in China, it would probably be so cheap, you could buy two spares for less than it would cost to insure a PDA phone for a year and pay one replacement deductible for any carrier in the US.
Speaking of which... check out dealextreme.com if you want to see some crazy stuff you can buy directly from China. I've bought about a hundred bucks worth of stuff from them over the past year, and I've grown to be rather fond of them. They have a ton of phones I've never really looked at too closely since none of the phones they sell will ever work on Sprint, but they might have something Android-ready if you're in Europe or can live with EDGE-only in the US (I seriously doubt any phone sold in China today can do 1700/2200 or 850/850 UMTS). I'm still laughing about their "iFhone" models, or the phone running some unknown OS (probably some flavor of LiMo) that looks like A brown European Hero... or the "NOKLA N95"
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Don't be stupid! I am currently providing one of your "so -call" Cheap craps Android to a French operator! 15k each month. Let me tell u one thing, there is something called CE standard, or FCC in the US; ROSH.....etc. As long as our product passes those test in the lab, we have international standard certificates. I can also answer your doubts on the UTMS question. There is something called electronic IC chipset which send/recieve UTMS signals; furthermore, we do not have to invent it as Americans/Europeans gave it to us because they beg for our RMB. I think Huawei is at least 5 time the size of HTC, right? Moreover, most of the current WCDMA/HSDPA/HSUPA base station equiptment is provied by Huawei worldwide! Android, which google gave Huawei for FREE because google wished Huawei to modify their Hisilicon smartphone(hardware) platform to use it instead of Windows Mobile; and the Hisilicon platform supports both OS on the same PCBA. We are a small firm, and we are current selling more than 250k smartphones per year, let alone those mega size manufactures!
As long as someone has money, products/technology would look for them to buy or invest. Americans, just keep your tunnel vision; that answers why our country is more and more wealthly and yours could only loan to pay-up depts. I am waiting for your bankruptcy!
P.S. I have never done a deal to sell to the U.S. not due to our own quality, just because Americans have no money but big-mouths!
P.S. Your unknown OS is called MTK platform(Mediatek), which partly owned by Foxconn; captures more than 65% of world wide GSM market in 2009! Samsung and LG are both their customers on the dual sim models! MTK will launch their smartphone platform on Android/WM this quarter!
So if China is so wonderful, when are you guys going to invent something original instead of just using your near-slave labor to put out cheap copies of American and European inventions? Something new and original that doesn't "borrow", abuse, or our right steal the intellectual property of the West?
Just curious.
calm down guys. seriously. this isn't the right place for any kind of political debate.
Talking about phones... there are a couple of reasons why chinese phones are cheaper. one of the main reasons: the development costs are much lower. most chinese phones are knock-offs, they don't have to pay any fancy designer and reverse engeneering requires less ressources than actual inventing and developing. in addition to that work simply is much cheaper in china as you probably know.
there is something called CE standard
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c'mon. passing the CE tests is nothing to be proud of. 79cent plastic toys have CE-logos.
fabsn said:
calm down guys. seriously. this isn't the right place for any kind of political debate.
Talking about phones... there are a couple of reasons why chinese phones are cheaper. one of the main reasons: the development costs are much lower. most chinese phones are knock-offs, they don't have to pay any fancy designer and reverse engeneering requires less ressources than actual inventing and developing. in addition to that work simply is much cheaper in china as you probably know.
c'mon. passing the CE tests is nothing to be proud of. 79cent plastic toys have CE-logos.
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CE standards required diffenent tests on each cataglory; u cannont compare toys with mobile. It tests radio performance, like GSM, WIFI, bluetooth; how many working hours can the components last, or testing material whether they are harmful to human body.
Gatecrasher R/T said:
So if China is so wonderful, when are you guys going to invent something original instead of just using your near-slave labor to put out cheap copies of American and European inventions? Something new and original that doesn't "borrow", abuse, or our right steal the intellectual property of the West?
Just curious.
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Click to collapse
1 mobile with dual SIM stand-by was invented by Chinese; It captures more than 40% of the current GSM market. Once again, our so-called cheap phones captures more than 65% of the market in 2009! Way more than the combine figures of Nokia, Samsung, SE, LG and Moto. Oh, I forgot.....Moto asked Foxconn and TCL to O.D.M mobile products for them. Is this one kind of the West's own invention?? Invention needs MONEY, that's why the West beg for our RMB and pass the technology to us.
We are now developing dual SIMs Windows Mobile, probably be launched late 2nd Quarter! Did u play with any of these before? Give a try then!
Sciphone N21 is apparently the same as DSTL search here for roms.
Sciphone N19 (the one i got few weeks ago) doesn't seem to be a replica of some other known phone. It runs android 1.5 out of the box, has unusual filesystem structure and I haven't found a way to recover (in case i brick it) with upgrade, therefore I won't be attempting upgrade to 1.6 or 2.0.1. 'official' site doesn't seem to mention existence or intention on publishing upgrades.
Android Market doesn't exist as app, out of the box, but there are some ways around it. (eg get Android Market for SDK -- as per some posts on this forum) then dig out apps to put on Sciphone N19. Once I collect everything required for a 'patch' I'll post.
Resolution on N19 is weird -- QVGA, not the usual HVGA, so a lot of the apps off Android Market that are written poorly for a fixed rez don't scale, and are not usable.
I'm not sure about other phones you were asking about.
What I was waiting for
xulture said:
Sciphone N21 is apparently the same as DSTL search here for roms.
Sciphone N19 (the one i got few weeks ago) doesn't seem to be a replica of some other known phone. It runs android 1.5 out of the box, has unusual filesystem structure and I haven't found a way to recover (in case i brick it) with upgrade, therefore I won't be attempting upgrade to 1.6 or 2.0.1. 'official' site doesn't seem to mention existence or intention on publishing upgrades.
Android Market doesn't exist as app, out of the box, but there are some ways around it. (eg get Android Market for SDK -- as per some posts on this forum) then dig out apps to put on Sciphone N19. Once I collect everything required for a 'patch' I'll post.
Resolution on N19 is weird -- QVGA, not the usual HVGA, so a lot of the apps off Android Market that are written poorly for a fixed rez don't scale, and are not usable.
I'm not sure about other phones you were asking about.
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that was what I was waiting for, (not the debate which phone is better nor which economy )
btw what is the official site you were talking abt?
the box came with www.mysciphone.com written on it.. That site seems to be the most official ;-) I can't seem to register for their forums though. Other models they have for sale are android and iphone look-alikes. I don't know much about iphones. But the N19 and N21 actually come with proper Android.
The N21 does actually take my interest. 0.6ghz? check. 2 SD card slots? check. Android 1.5 Cupcake? Meh, but never mind. 5mp camera? Sweet. Under £100? You bet.
And don't knock the Chinese. Remember, they had their enlightenment while we were still stuck in the dark ages, and if you really think about it, they have been exporting their technologies to us since time immemorial.
Yeah, they're cheap knock offs, but they're aimed at their domestic market. The stuff they do for our market, Google and HTC have commissioned, like the Nexus One for example (and yes, I would bet my last pound that it was manufactured in China).
And I bet there are loads of Chinese Android hackers who, if only we could communicate with them, could show us a thing or two about rooting and modding Androids (and possibly give us the rooting kits to these phones as well).
Phil.
pbrennan42 said:
The N21 does actually take my interest. 0.6ghz? check. 2 SD card slots? check. Android 1.5 Cupcake? Meh, but never mind. 5mp camera? Sweet. Under £100? You bet.
And don't knock the Chinese. Remember, they had their enlightenment while we were still stuck in the dark ages, and if you really think about it, they have been exporting their technologies to us since time immemorial.
Yeah, they're cheap knock offs, but they're aimed at their domestic market. The stuff they do for our market, Google and HTC have commissioned, like the Nexus One for example (and yes, I would bet my last pound that it was manufactured in China).
And I bet there are loads of Chinese Android hackers who, if only we could communicate with them, could show us a thing or two about rooting and modding Androids (and possibly give us the rooting kits to these phones as well).
Phil.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i think the product that u r waiting for shares the same solution or PCBA with this: http://www.jetsun.net.cn/ProductShow.asp?ID=116
There is another version that runs on CDMA EVDO(CDMA 1X) network. They should be selling at around USD$180. For the rooting kits, you need to make sure the chipset solution is the same; otherwise it won't work. For example, the tool on Hisilicon platform doesn't work with Marvell even they both runs Andriod 1.5. Even so, still a lot of work needed to be done as u need to migrate the LCD drivers, TP driver, camera driver.....etc.
Once again, Androids or WM6.5 do not need to hack. Google/Microsoft pass their solutions/designs to chipset makers; Androids or WM6.5 then can run on that specific PCBA design. We will get an example and BOM list of that design when we purchase the chipset with RMB or USD. IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL because this is called "technology transfer". In fact, those chipset makers are pulling all stops to help us to develop our own product. BECAUSE THEY WANT SALES AND $$$! Just that simple!
P.S. I don't know whether you guys have ever heard of Marvell....It is listed on Nasdaq, and bought Intel's Xscale(Mobile CPUs) division back in 2005. Marvell currently supplies : Alcatel、Arima、Asus、Cisco Systems、Compal、D-Link、ECS Elitegroup、Ericsson、Fujitsu、Gateway、Gigabyte Technology、Hewlett Packard、Hitachi、Huawei、Intel、Inventec、LG、Linksys、Lucent Technologies、Motorola、MSI、NEC、NETGEAR、Nokia、Nortel Networks、Panasonic、Sharp、Sony、Quanta Computer、RIM、Samsung、Seagate、Toshiba、VTech、Western Digital。
I just want to clarify something: for the most part, I like, and enthusiastically approve, of most Chinese electronics goods. If you re-read my post, most of it is actually a compliment. One area where Chinese companies have American and European companies beaten badly is aesthetic design. Chinese companies place a very high importance on making things look nice. American companies, by comparison, regard beauty as the first thing to kill when cutting costs.
Just to give a semi-related example, last year I was shopping for new laminate flooring for my house. As anyone who's been to Home Depot or Lowe's knows, American and European laminate flooring generally looks *awful*. You can tell from 20 feet away that it's fake. On the other hand, high end laminate flooring from China (intended mainly for sale in China, but occasionally ends up for sale from small companies in big cities like Miami & New York) will blow you away. You'd literally have to get on your hands & knees, with a flashlight and magnifying glass, to know for sure that it isn't real wood.
Why don't American companies, like Home Depot, sell it? They make higher profit margins selling engineered hardwood. If they sold laminate for half the price that looked 99% as good as the best hardwood, nobody would bother with engineered hardwood. That's why the only place you can buy it in America is from small businesses that literally buy a few shipping containers of it, then sell it straight from their warehouse. The 60c/foot laminate from China is just as awful as the 99c/foot laminate from WilsonArt or Pergo... but the $3-4/foot laminate from China is amazingly good.
As far as my statement that the phones wouldn't be able to work on Sprint or Verizon, and wouldn't be able to use 3G data on GSM, I maintain that it's almost certainly true *right now*. It's not because the Chinese phones are low quality or less advanced. It's due to an unfortunate combination of politics and the business practices of American cell phone carriers.
As far as I know, the United States is the only country on Earth where UMTS operates at 850MHz/850MHz (AT&T) or 1700/2200MHz (T-Mobile). OK, Canada & Mexico might use the same frequencies, but it's still a very small subset of the world market. More importantly, T-Mobile didn't even OWN those frequencies until ~3 years ago, and didn't deploy its first 1700/2200 UMTS cell for customer use until ~2 years ago. In most parts of the country, they're still in the process of deploying it, and WILL be for at least a few more years.
The FCC isn't happy about it, but it WILL tolerate the use of imported cell phones that are approved by some other government agency it respects (including those of Europe, Japan, and Canada). The problem is, THOSE foreign agencies will only certify and approve frequencies relevant to their own countries. Since 1700/2200 are irrelevant to use in their countries, they won't certify it (even if they DO certify the same phone for 1900/2100UMTS). Right now, the FCC is pretty much the only government agency that will certify a phone for 1700/2200 operation, and getting FCC approval costs about $100,000. Because it's so expensive, and because the only market where it matters is the US, NOBODY -- Chinese, Finnish, Korean, or otherwise -- is going to spend the money getting a phone approved by the FCC for 1700/2200UMTS in the US unless they already have a firm order from AT&T or T-Mobile that's contingent upon getting that approval first.
Thus, it's obviously not inconceivable that a phone not officially approved for 1700/2200UMTS might work anyway. HOWEVER, if someone were caught trying to import phones capable of 1700/2200UMTS that weren't approved by *somebody* official, they'd be confiscated and destroyed.
There IS a possible loophole: since most new cell phones have software-defined radios, it would be VERY possible for a Chinese company to export phones to the US that were approved for international UMTS frequencies (1900/2100), and were shipped with radio firmware that did ONLY those frequencies... but ALSO quietly leak the unapproved firmware that would "magically" enable 1700/2200 UMTS radio operation. Now, technically, anyone using a phone like that to do 1700/2200UMTS would be breaking the law... but as a practical matter, the phone would work fine, and nobody would know the difference.
I know this, because there were quite a few discussions about it regarding the TrollTech GreenPhone and OpenMoko. AFAIK, nobody ever managed to hack the firmware to enable 1700/2200UMTS for either phone, but that was mainly because TrollTech and FIC are big companies with a lot to lose if they made the FCC angry. On the OTHER hand, I can definitely see a small(er) Chinese handset manufacturer quietly leaking a copy of firmware capable of 1700/2200UMTS to an American importer for him to test, then order 100,000 phones to sell on eBay once he's verified that the phones can be reflashed and do 1700/2200UMTS on T-Mobile. The phones would be legal to import, because their 'out of the box' capabilities would be exactly what were officially approved... but anyone could then buy them and reflash them to do 1700/2200UMTS on Tmo. As long as the guy selling them didn't *advertise* them as 1700/2200-capable, ship them with the unapproved firmware, or get caught telling customers how to do it, the FCC couldn't touch him. He *might* even be able to get away with a disclaimer in the ad, like "WARNING: This phone is only APPROVED for 1900/2100UMTS, and MUST NOT be reflashed with unauthorized firmware to enable 1700/2200 UMTS." (making it obvious to everyone that it's not only possible, but probably quite easy to do).
As far as CDMA phones go, imported phones aren't likely to be useful in America for quite a while. There's no technical reason why they wouldn't work. The problem is that Sprint maintains a database of the ESN of every phone they officially sell, and they won't allow customers to use phones whose ESN isn't in their holy database. In theory, Verizon WILL allow you to use any unlocked CDMA phone you can get to work... but as a practical matter, this just means you can flash a Sprint phone that's the twin of a Verizon phone with Verizon firmware. Without Verizon-specific firmware, you'll have problems with data (I'm pretty sure EV-DO won't work), text messages will get mangled (Verizon formats them differently than everyone else), and the phone's voicemail indicator won't work properly.
God knows, 4-5 years ago, there were two or three Chinese-made CDMA PalmOS phones I would have *killed* to be able to use on Sprint.
The point I made about Chinese phones being "rooted out of the box" was actually a compliment, meant to illustrate that to users HERE (at XDA-develoeprs), Chinese phones are likely to be more interesting than American & European phones *if* someone can figure out how to get them onto T-Mobile, Sprint, and Verizon "through the back door" (or lobby China's government to twist Obama's arm and get the FCC to *force* Sprint and Verizon to let us have R-UIM cards and use any unlocked CDMA phone we want, in the name of international interoperability). I suspect the 1700/2200 problem will take care of itself in another 2-3 years (eventually, CE and the others WILL start certifying 1700/2200 capabilities, because Europeans will want phones that can officially do 3G UMTS when visiting the US), though 850UMTS is probably a lost cause for economic and technological reasons (getting a software radio that can already do 1900/2100 to also do 1700/2200 is a small change... getting it to do 850 is another matter entirely).
Likewise, the point I made about Chinese phones being very similar hardware-wise, and using nearly identical firmware, was meant to illustrate another reason why they'd likely be of interest to users HERE... if someone can get Android 2.1 to build for ONE Chinese phone, there's a good chance that they'd be able to get it to build for ANY Chinese phone built from the same reference platform and chipset. To a certain extent, that's already the case with HTC phones. In the long run, Chinese companies will be the ones that commoditize Android phones, creating hundreds of handsets that are more or less hardware-compatible as long as you have the right drivers (the way laptops are), but vary in the small details that currently frustrate so many users here. If I could buy a Chinese CDMA Android phone capable of working on Sprint with 800x480 display, 5MP camera, with a REAL gamepad (like the Sidekick has/had), and real hardkeys (I *hate* fake touchscreen buttons), I wouldn't *care* whether HTC and all of Sprint's official phones were button-free iSlabs. In the long run, China's domestic market is so big that if someone can come up with a way to keep those phones compatible with US & European networks, EVERYONE will benefit from increased choice -- especially users whose preferences differ from those of the iPhone-drooling masses. When there are 2-3 billion potential customers (between the US, Europe, and China), you can get away with making niche products that only appeal to a narrower group of buyers, because .01% of 3 billion is STILL 300,000
knock offs of what exactly?
isn't android open source? isnt this what google intended?
some interesting points made in this thread, nice to see comments from a manufacturer
just want to say (as iv have researched a lot on these knocks off type phones) a lot are Beautiful ! well worth the money.. have Good build quality , hardware & software (there smartphones anyway) and last time I checked my htc's etc were not built in US, Canada or tha UK lol
Just to add, http://fastcardtech.com Anyway not only has grate products, desent customerservice (Quick to answer anyway) They allso offer One year warrenty on all products, have grate prices (high shiping costs) They allso have a lot of grate video unboxings & reviews allso by there customers.. So buying a brand new WM or andriod smartphone that comes with warrenty for $100 to $200 is well worth it in my books... even if its just for WiFi surfing & software testing..