Related
I was flashing my brothers phone for him, and I was using the CID Workaround, and it completed, and then after a hard reset the device wouldnt go past the first splash screen.. pllease help
If your able to get into bootloader mode then you should be able to flash another rom such as wizard love or your providers rom.
If you read the thread on unlocking G4 cid locked using shell tool you will see what i mean. I personally was stuck in a very similar situation and received help, so the info you need might be in that thread.
nstefanelli said:
I was flashing my brothers phone for him, and I was using the CID Workaround, and it completed, and then after a hard reset the device wouldnt go past the first splash screen.. pllease help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check your PM's
bwesty said:
If your able to get into bootloader mode then you should be able to flash another rom such as wizard love or your providers rom.
If you read the thread on unlocking G4 cid locked using shell tool you will see what i mean. I personally was stuck in a very similar situation and received help, so the info you need might be in that thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i used the shell tool, but i just got stuck on the first splash after i did that.... here are device specs
Its a Cingular 8125, obivously g4
IPL 2.25.0001
SPL 2.25.0001
It doesnt get past bootloader, and I would really like to put WM6 on it.
At this point, I've tried various other ROMs and nothing is working. Any thoughts or ideas at all would be appreciated. Thanks.
jUST DO WHAT I SAY
gREETINGS,
Just follow this steps u will be out of it.
Press and hold the camera button and reset the phone, hold the camera button until you see the tri color screen (bootloader), when u are on tri color screen connect the USB with your phone(dont see for active sync it wont recognise but it will be connected), and then flash your phone with the rom your provider has given you i.e, the original rom and DONT flash it with shell tool use the exe file of the rom.
When you are at the original rom then try to flash the WM6 with shell tool and follow the instruction properly.
Thanks
samy.3660 said:
gREETINGS,
Just follow this steps u will be out of it.
Press and hold the camera button and reset the phone, hold the camera button until you see the tri color screen (bootloader), when u are on tri color screen connect the USB with your phone(dont see for active sync it wont recognise but it will be connected), and then flash your phone with the rom your provider has given you i.e, the original rom and DONT flash it with shell tool use the exe file of the rom.
When you are at the original rom then try to flash the WM6 with shell tool and follow the instruction properly.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cannot do that because the Carrier ROMs that I have aren't for G4, so they arent working. I have three different carrier ROMs for my phone.. and none of them work.
-Stefanelli-
nstefanelli said:
i used the shell tool, but i just got stuck on the first splash after i did that.... here are device specs
Its a Cingular 8125, obivously g4
IPL 2.25.0001
SPL 2.25.0001
It doesnt get past bootloader, and I would really like to put WM6 on it.
At this point, I've tried various other ROMs and nothing is working. Any thoughts or ideas at all would be appreciated. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check your email, I downloaded and zip works fine here.
i'm facing this problem right now , i will solve it with the original rom .
the problem started when i used shelltool to upgrade my G4 CID Locked to windows mobile 6 crossbow underground edition .
i will give it another try when i get my device alive again ,
any suggestions for the WM6 underground to make it work using shelltool on my wiza 200 ??
--------------------- Edit -----------------------
Finally i solved the problem and installed Crossbow WM6 underground edition .
all i did is to install the original rom from provider and then used shelltool to install WM6 .
i want to mention that my wiza200 is G4 and its CID Locked .
Huge thanx to mUn , you are da man
Mmm
I've tried underground wm6, but flashing till 96%, then error 302. I've searching for love rom few hours at night, then finally found, it is using the same flashing frontend (but in italian? language), flashed ok, phone's running. I've tried some few other wm6 roms, but always errors like "too old, get new one" or once it was probably fake, because it loaded exactly the same ROM as love one is. So, now I've probably stuck on WM5 at all
lobiik said:
I've tried underground wm6, but flashing till 96%, then error 302. I've searching for love rom few hours at night, then finally found, it is using the same flashing frontend (but in italian? language), flashed ok, phone's running. I've tried some few other wm6 roms, but always errors like "too old, get new one" or once it was probably fake, because it loaded exactly the same ROM as love one is. So, now I've probably stuck on WM5 at all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
whats your device and is it G3 or G4 ?
try to do as i did and it worked for me , install the provider flash , then try shelltool to flash WM6 underground .
WBR
a-h-t1 said:
whats your device and is it G3 or G4 ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine is G4, dunno if cid is locked or not. I've flashed it as I said with wizard love rom and working without problems. I've tried that again this morning, to flash from love rom, but the same. At 96% it hangs, error 302 Communication error, then starts recovery process, phone goes to bootloader mode. Then is possible to flash it with love rom again with no problem
g4
i have a g4 wizard using the shell tool i have chaged my rom on my phone sometimes 3 times a week just to test them out
the shell tool works if you cant download from the forum here is the link for it
http://rapidshare.com/files/17787647/ShellTool_bugfixed.zip
G4
yes, but when I run shelltool, and press get rom info, all fields states N/A
info from phone is:
ROM Version: 2.26.10.2 WWE
Radio: 2.25.11
ExtROM: 2.26.10.105
IPL/SPL: 2.17.0001
And anyway, dunno exactly which rom for WM6 I can put in (I've just 5.underground_edition_Crossbow_ROM.exe which stucks at 96% with 302 error)
well, I'm dumb, mislooked one stupid thing. Everything passed without errors, Windows Mobile 6 is up and running
happy to know that , the problem was installing rapi ha ??
WBR
No, not really, rapi and that second cab was in device, it was restarted, but I did a mistake - i didn't copied that desired rom into updater directory - that was why were all fields N/A... did that, flashed on first try, without problem
I had the same problem, orginal rom from the provider, and I can reflash it again.....
THX for the info......
ROM verion and link location
Hi lobiik,
which ROM did you use for your device, as you comments above:
"i didn't copied that desired rom into updater directory "
can you please point me to location where i can get the ROM, also proper steps to install the same.
Thanks,
Ajay
HELP!!!!!!!!
I tried flash my G3 with shelltools the program said it worked well i did hard reset then i turned it on it is stuck on 1st front screen bootloader mode is stuck i dont know what is is my device bricked
---------------------edit--------------------------
im a newbie
i saw lot of people have dead prophet problem, so i am here now to make a new thread to all this people and i hope to make it useful.
now we start
** FIRST : lets know names of prophet :
I mate Jamin, O2 XDA Neo, Qtek S200, Dopod 818 pro, Dopod 830, SPV M600, VPA Compact S.
** SECOND : we must know that before we trying to do any updating or change roms on my prophet i just need to do which called unlock for the prophet and then we after that been able to change any rom on my ( jamin ) and of course u need to be careful about Your device is it G4 or G3 ,
# and how we know its G4 Or G3 ?
# when u start Your Device u will see some numbers on left,
---------------------
IPL: 1.00.000
SPL: 2.20.000
GSM: 02.61.21
OS: 3.0.0.0
--------------------
and may be changed and that goes to the rom which You have, now we look for the last number on ( IPL and SPL ) , if we found it ( 0 ) it means You r G3 and if it ( 1 ) so You r G4 .
** THIRD : lets go to unlock , i will put programs in this thread it will help u in unlock.
-- Sync your device with computer and open the file u download it called HardSpl you will find two files one one foe G3 and G4 open your kind then you'll find a file called (( hardspl.bat )) okay, be sure your device is connected to computer then open the file and follow instruction and it will reset your device ,
now u ready to change rom.
TO BE CONTINUED
hey guys
i tried to attachment the file now put it gives me database problem, so i will be after it to attach don't worry pals. see you later.
hey guys
i tried to attachment the file now put it gives me database problem, so i will be after it to attach don't worry pals. see you later.
if any one can help please contact me.
hello
my device is jamin g4
it stopsat the boot loader and dono thing
can u help me please?
my e-mail is [email protected]
and suddenly after trying to update the spl been 1.01
please help me
can i fix it?
waiting for ur help
What is the IPL and SPL?
If the wiki where up, I'd suggest looking at that, but as it is I'll explain it now...
What ROM where you attempting to upgrade to?
To get the device back, I would say "Read the wiki" but it's down!!!
Download this ROM.
In ActiveSync, disable "connect through USB" (File->Connection Settings).
Put the device into bootloader (the three coloured screen) and connect it to the computer using the USB cable.
Run the file you downloaded earlier. This should then install a new ROM.
From there, just wait for it to finish.
Now, it should work!
From there, you could re install the Orange WM5 ROM, or try upgrading to WM6. Make sure you read all the relevant guides first!
thanks alot i did as u said but it stops at 80% or 88%
then show this message (error 326 invalid command )
please help me
i'm feeling bad
my mail is [email protected]
What brand the device? Has it been SIM unlocked?
hi again brothers, pal zerocool. first u must unlock ur device to be able to accept any rom after that and solve pproblems.
first flash this rom its offecial and it solve dead prophet problems.
then make hard spl by program open file called hardspl.bat.
make hard reset.
flash ur rom u want.
make hard reset again.
then enjoy.
i uploaded the hardspl program but i couldnt upload the rom its so big so u can look in ur mail u will find the solution.
u can extract file by any program for zip.and tell me the news
dont forget to look to ur mail. see all of u later
Dead prophet
Hi guys,
I have been using a sh... Nokia sine I broke my prophet G4 in december by upgrading the OS.
I had downgraded first to NVID and then I tried to upgrade and it fails at 95%.
Sine this day, my prophet seem totally dead, no light when plug on both charger or computer, windows do not recognize at all the device because it is turned off. And it really do not seem to charge...
I am living in China now and a guy told me I had to change the PB board...The ost is 100Euros, but I am almost sure I an find another solution...
The weird thing is I cannot charge it at all ( I mean no lights but does it charge a little?).
The guy tested my prophet with another battery and in that ase, it is stuck on the bootloader.
We tried several roms and it always fails at 95% and the error is 200 something, maybe 245 or 243, I do not remember sorry...
Is my phone hardware is dead? or it is just a software problem and I did not see the right guy?
Do I need to buy a new battery? I have read that sometimes the device is not able to recognize it even if it the offiial one and even if it is working on another device...
PLease help me I don't want to loose this phone that I've been using for almost 3 years...
Otherwise I will switch to an iphone but I am not sure to be as happy than I was with my prophet.
Xie Xie for your advice and answers.
Guilh1
Can it enter bootloader at all?
If yes, what are the IPL and SPL?
If not, it will be a hardware problem (may just be connectors to the battery but may be something more).
the only way of recovery is using jtag
but 1st we must discover the location of jtag pins on motherboard
I just do not know because with my actual battery, anything is possible....
when I tried with the guy and a new battery it was blocked on the bootloader, but don't remember the IPL and SPL...sorry
I may be right about the battery onnectors though, but the problems seem to be from the phone connectors or the battery it self???
Thank you anyway for your very quick reply
when I tried with the guy and a new battery it was blocked on the bootloader, but don't remember the IPL and SPL...sorry
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it can enter bootloader, it is almost certainly your battery at fault!
Ok so i burnt my battery during the upgrade...
But why is it still blocking at 95% when he tried to put a rom?
With his battery, it was stuck on the bootloader and not possible to install a rom, even a NVID WM5...
I really do not know what to do...
Thanks again for your help
My iMate JAMin is dead; I was in the middle of flashing it when it froze, now when I turn it on, I get the Tri-color screen with the following ...
IPL: 2.13.0001
SPL: 2.13.0001
No [BUSB[/B] is detected. So now I need a way to flash it from the SD Card. I can not even see the HTC startup screen anymore, it just jumps directly into the tri-color screen.
Ok so i burnt my battery during the upgrade...
But why is it still blocking at 95% when he tried to put a rom?
With his battery, it was stuck on the bootloader and not possible to install a rom, even a NVID WM5...
I really do not know what to do...
Thanks again for your help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you know which ROM? Is your device branded, and is it SIM locked?
Do you know the IPL/SPL? Did they end with the same numbers?
My iMate JAMin is dead; I was in the middle of flashing it when it froze, now when I turn it on, I get the Tri-color screen with the following ...
IPL: 2.13.0001
SPL: 2.13.0001
No [BUSB[/b] is detected. So now I need a way to flash it from the SD Card. I can not even see the HTC startup screen anymore, it just jumps directly into the tri-color screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please look at this if you want more help, post here...
thanks alot dear samuraititio
but i can't flash it
it writes (no vender id)
help me please i tried another tool with the same nbf file it stops at 80%
and it automatically enter the boot loader
and i can't do ant thing
its information
jamin/g4
ipl 2.13.0001
spl 1.01
i think my problem is in the spl coz it was 2.13.0001
and now it's 1.01
how can i fix it please i still starter in this way so i'm trying;
help soon please
You now have a G3 SPL on a G4 Device.
What did you flash exactly?
l3v5y said:
Do you know which ROM? Is your device branded, and is it SIM locked?
Do you know the IPL/SPL? Did they end with the same numbers?
Please look at this if you want more help, post here...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hello pal i3v5y
i have the same problem
idid what u said the flashing stops at 80%
i need ur help please
i'm online at the moment and u too help me soon if u can please
my e-mail is [email protected]
waiting for u i don't have any other device to use and i need it
l3v5y said:
You now have a G3 SPL on a G4 Device.
What did you flash exactly?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
now i flashed the official rom of jamin but it stopped at 80%
Hi I have looked through all the threads and cannot find any help can some one help I tried to flash my rom and now the imate is stuck on the bootloaders screen ? Red, Green,Blue with IPL 1.00 and SPL 2.13 but it will not connect via USB to recover. I have tried all the steps shown but with no connection its not working. Thanks in advance and I hope someone can help.
taylor99 said:
Hi I have looked through all the threads and cannot find any help can some one help I tried to flash my rom and now the imate is stuck on the bootloaders screen ? Red, Green,Blue with IPL 1.00 and SPL 2.13 but it will not connect via USB to recover. I have tried all the steps shown but with no connection its not working. Thanks in advance and I hope someone can help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. try my post @ my signature, since your device had not done HARDSPL,
steps are:-
1. choose your favourite nk.nbf (from new rom) and put in the the folder of my tool ( that you had downloaded to your PC),
2. force Prophet into bootloader manually ------> very very important,
3. plug to PC and you should see the " USB" on the Prophet screen,
4. double click "upgrade.bat" from my lazy tool,
5. wait, and follow the on screen instruction,
6. DONE
4. double click "upgrade.bat" from my lazy tool,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That won't work as your tool needs an active sync connection!
Please read this: http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Prophet_recovery
follow it, and then after that, dioxdas tool will work.
I did my first flash a few days ago, eventually i had the same problem you have, I downloaded the original rom for my phone from an ftp (forgot the link) and it flashed successfully (no other rom was working!) from bootloaders screen then upgraded back to wm6.1 Hope this helps!
I have a small question for the experts, my IPL is 1.00 and SPL is 2.13, does this mean I have a g3 phone?
Good Luck!
mouhahaha said:
... my IPL is 1.00 and SPL is 2.13, does this mean I have a g3 phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes indeed, your device is G3.
Yes, you have a G3 device.
Imate OK now
Thank You guys My Imate is working now , I salute your skills and expertise
Thanks
Help please!
I have an T-Mobile Ameo (also known Athena X7500) and i tried the Olipro Unlocker, but the installation didnt finish, at 59% stopped. After that i turn off the device, then turn on, but my device still have a 4 colour screen,red, green, blue and white, it doesnt boot the Windows Mobile, just have the installation screen...
please help
Use olipro's tool again and then flash your final ROM
i tried it many times, but since than my Athena X7500 was dead, the Olipros unlocker doesnt work. The program said: "The Update Utility cannot connect your PDA phone"
In bootloader (coloured screen), does it say anything? if so what? when you try to flash a rom or use unlocker do you get a code? is your memory card out of the slot?
I took a photo my bootloader (coloured) screen:
http://kepfeltoltes.pirateclub.hu/pics/20090106317.jpg My device doesnt say anything.
When i used the unlocker, i didnt got any code. And my memory card was in the slot.
I also took a photo what the Olipro's said now, if i try to continous the flashing:
http://kepfeltoltes.pirateclub.hu/pics/20090106319.jpg
Have you tried flashing your carrier's original Rom?
i will try it, but i dont know where can i find my original rom...
and my second biggest trouble: in this mode, i cant charge my batteries. If i dont find an solution this problem soon, i think, my device will be a BIG trouble. Grrr, i hate olipros program...
Thanks a lot, my athena is live again, i flash my original rom!!!
But the Olipros Unlockert isnt working, the installation go to 100%, the program said that the flashing is succesfull, but my SPL is still 1.1, and i cant flash any roms..
I can understand why. Any ideas?
The other thread was closed, you shouldn't double post.
Read the links I mentioned.
as in olis first post
"Please note: you must have .net Framework 2.0 installed with the services packs, if you don't it then it probably won't run till you download it.
SPECIAL INFO ABOUT STEP 2: When you run this step, first your device will be flashed; this is NOT the end of Step 2, you must then configure your device and set it up fully so you can access the menus etc (there will be a prompt to ask you to do this after the flash anyway). then you will be able to continue. please make sure to read ALL dialogs fully"
leave out the sim and sd card.
Some others have reported better luck with the shipped WM6 rom if they had trouble unlocking.
I installed the NET Framework 2.0 SP2 in my device and i put out my sim and sd card. And when i flashing the Olipros Unlocker, it went to 100%, but my SPL is still 1.1
I dont understand.
VorosAdam said:
I installed the NET Framework 2.0 SP2 in my device and i put out my sim and sd card. And when i flashing the Olipros Unlocker, it went to 100%, but my SPL is still 1.1
I dont understand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the net framework should be on your computer.
what OS is on your computer ?
May be better if you use winXP
did you install an oficial wm6 rom ?
Read the later pages in the unlocker thread
My computer also have the NET Framework 2.0 SP2. And when the flashing didn't work, i also installed the NET Framework 3.5 SP1, but, when i flashing a ROM in my decive, it also went to 100%, but the SPL is still 1.1.
I use a 32-bit Windows XP in my computer.
My T-Mobile Ameo (Athena) is a second hand device, it was used when i bought. But the first user said me, that the original OS was the Windows Mobile 5 in my Athena, but he update from Windows Mobile 5 to Windows Mobile 6.0. He said that he update with an official T-Mobile way.
Ok all good so far
Did you use the unlocker from this thread?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=315831
The other thought i had was that you should try a different computer and usb cable
oh, thank you so mutch, i tried an another computer, and it flashed the SPL from 1.1 to 1.2!
thanks again
my htc advantaage x7500
hello myfrnd please help me as my phone is dead after i used ur rom upgrade 3.5, i was already using michy cooked version of window mobile 6.1 im new in this field and during upgrade process after going 92% it just stuck and and showing 3 color screen it has a msg of IPL 1.2 OLIPRO pls help me i will donate u if u could solve my problem
thanks
sheizi said:
hello myfrnd please help me as my phone is dead after i used ur rom upgrade 3.5, i was already using michy cooked version of window mobile 6.1 im new in this field and during upgrade process after going 92% it just stuck and and showing 3 color screen it has a msg of IPL 1.2 OLIPRO pls help me i will donate u if u could solve my problem
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I saw someone with the same problem as you here awhile back and he was able to fix it. So keep your post alive or read the sticky post under the Upgrade section. I believe that was where I read it.
dead X7500
Hey Im also a sufferer of a dead X7500......this all happened wen I was trying to flash my ROM which was using a SPL !.20 OLIPRO
wen I try to re flash the device , it starts a stops at 1% and follows an error msg !
plzzzzzzzzzzzz help me out to solve this prob !
regards!
VorosAdam said:
i will try it, but i dont know where can i find my original rom...
and my second biggest trouble: in this mode, i cant charge my batteries. If i dont find an solution this problem soon, i think, my device will be a BIG trouble. Grrr, i hate olipros program...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the same problem would be kind and tell me how you solved the problem.
[email protected]
Hello, I am in serious trouble! I got a brand new HTC Athena with Windows Mobile 5.0. I succesfully upgrade it to Windows Mobile 6.0.
All was OK.
Than I was interested to move into Windows Mobile 6.1 and possibly 6.5. At first I did the Athena unlock (3 step process) and all went OK: Antenna 1.5.0, SPL 1.2 OLI....
THAN I DID MY ERROR! I try to upgrade my 6.0 ROM with the Micky 6.1 cooked file with SPL 3.5. After a 92 percent upgrade, the ROM crashed and now I always get a nasty black screen with few lines (No 3 color bands!). When I try to upgrade again the same ROM or ROM for SPL 1.2 I get an error (ID mismatching). I guess the only solution is a hard and full reset of the Windows. But doing only a hard reset with the PDA will NOT change my error message and I will keep see this nasty black screen and I cannot load the Windows ActiveSync application-
I am totally lost. Help please. Any tool for a true full restore/recover??? (I did NOT make any backup!).
This thread might hold a solution to your problem.
Hi
If you follow the instructions exactly in post 33, it will solve your problems. just click HERE
Jay
Hello, those links are basically for corrupted wifi antenna files.-
In my case my HTC Athena crashed the Windows 6 ROM while I was attempting to upgrade, after unlocking the phone, the Athena from version 6.0 to version 6.1
Are you sure I can use the post #33 also for my specific trouble?
Thank you in advance!
this is also to repair your bootloader-infos
if you look at your bootloaderscreen, you will see ATHE100, IPL, ATHE100, SPL. if not, you have to repair it
make sure you flashed the right rom, spl 1 or 3.5
How can the bootloader get repaired?
yes use that link, post #33. fixes both wifi and modelid problems and bootloader problems when you got stuck at 92% of the flashing process.
Cannot re flash ROM
Please help! I tried the unlocker and it failed at 92% and since then I have no WM6. Then I tried to flash the Michy WM6.5 and that failed. I was getting model id errors so I did the mtty and mac1 fix which was succesful. However all I can get now is a grey screen on boot-up. I can get to the bootloader screen and it displays ATHE100, IPL-v2.02, ATHE100, SPL-v1.20. Olipro. From what I have read on the forum at this stage I should run a RUU to flash a WM6 ROM but all that I try can't connect because no OS running to connect with Activesync? Is there a way to flash from the bootloader? The other option seems to be putting an image and flasher on a miniSD but I can't find clear instructions for this or which files?
Please ignore - my battery wasn't charged enough. Replaced battery and recovered device.
Still Major Problem! Help me! Have mercy!
Hello Responderman, all,
I have follow the link (thread 33)...., however, after I have typed lnbs filename.bin 75108000 (I have SPL 1.2), I got in mtty the "code entrypoint unknown" message, which should be ok......
However, after I have disconnected the usb cable of the Athena from the PC and try to reboot it, I got again the exact same, nasty, dark screen with blue strips.....:-( It means that my damaged firmware has NOT been fix and in fact I am still NOT able to boot WM successfully!
PLEASE HELP. It is 3 months with this problem and I cannot use my device.:-(
Still Major Problem! Help me! Have mercy!
Hello Responderman, all,
first, how can I get the mac address of my device? It is NOT written anywhere in the Athena parts (checked in the battery bay and so on.....), and so when I run mtty i am in trouble! I have used a mac address got from my company's manager, but not sure it is ok to use it with the Athena!
Anyway,......I have follow the post link (thread 33)...., and followed the various steps.- However, after I have typed lnbs filename.bin 75108000 (I have SPL 1.2), I got in mtty the "code entrypoint unknown" message, which should be ok......
However, after I have disconnected the usb cable of the Athena from the PC and try to reboot it, I got again the exact same, nasty, dark screen with blue strips.....:-( It means that my damaged firmware has NOT been fix and in fact I am still NOT able to boot WM successfully!
PLEASE HELP. It is 3 months with this problem and I cannot use my device.:-(
Solved!
Hi, problem done. I have follow the remarks, fixed my broken firmware and now I use well Athena with VM 6.5! Thanks all for your help!
puffo said:
Hi, problem done. I have follow the remarks, fixed my broken firmware and now I use well Athena with VM 6.5! Thanks all for your help!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you tell what you've actually done after you've changed ROM with Mtty?
I done the thing with Mtty but just as you described when I reset it now I still get the grey screen. And if I try to update ROM it fails again on 92%
where did you find the upgrade from wm5 to wm6?
the link I found on rapidshare seems not be availabel anymore