Guys, theres a movement in the community to get rid of this site which sells access to pirated paid apps. Now, this isnt to promote the site, this is to get rid of it. Please go here and sign the petition. All the information is there. Support app developers who work hard to make our phones better by helping to get rid of these pirates.
http://bit.ly/bkKwaZ
Support your community!
Also, if you follow this link: http://twitter.com/Mini_Lee/status/20682622042 it will take you to the tweet i put out with the petition link directly in it. So if you're one of those people with thousands of followers on twitter, send it out!
Done, and tweeting it.
Signed - thank you to whoever started this petition!
Been following this on Twitter today. Retweeted protests, and just signed this. I'll be honest, I pirate a lot of stuff, but I wouldn't pirate from a hard working Android dev. If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
OP updated with link to RT'able tweet link.
Kusotare, what do you intend to do with the results of the petition?
I checked, their domain is registered through GoDaddy and hidden by DomainsByProxy. I sent an e-mail to DomainsByProxy to see whether they actually respond to information about illegal activity. It has been my experience that such complaints to GoDaddy will go unanswered but e-mail is cheap so I hit them up too.
But in all honesty, this will be a minor hiccup, if it gets them taken down at all. The overall IP block is owned by Worldstream out of the Netherlands (according to the RIPE branch of IANA), although some tools report the actual location as Portugal. If you run a reverse IP lookup (try a good one like YouGetSignal), the web server at the same IP is also host to a bunch of Iranian spam and piracy blogs under the vatanblog.com domain, so my guess is whomever owns the server (which isn't going to be the same as those running the network where the IP block is managed) isn't going to be too worried about the results of a petition.
But I suppose it can't hurt to hit up Worldstream, so I've e-mailed them as well.
P.S. Phromik, speaking as a software developer who has been victimized by piracy, you're a hypocritical tool.
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
s15274n said:
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
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Really no need for him to roll in here and brag about his piracy, is there?
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
Except he's not bragging... he's being honest.
srqt said:
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
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GoDaddy are the domain registrant. The actual website is hosted on a dedicated server provided by worldstream.nl so you want to be contacting [email protected] as well as the Dutch anti-piracy outfit BREIN at [email protected]
It's interesting to note that the same dedicated server is being used to host several other warez sites including some pornography forums. I'm pretty sure neither the server provider or BREIN would be happy about these.
It's interesting to note that within the last 12 hours androidplayground has been taken offline. However I suspect this was done by the owner rather than any takedown notice. He has already set his twitter account to private and one of the last tweets he sent was about having a new server ready.
To Bad google isn't jumping on this. I mean you see his lame comment on nearly every app that comes out in the market.
What confuses me is why would somebody send him money to become a member knowing he/she is a thief in the first place.
The results of the petition will be sent to the domain registrar, the host and paypal in a three way attack. If all goes well, they'll lose their domain, hosting and ability to charge people through paypal simultaneously. I have already emailed all three of the companies to let them know about the petition.
So yes, while it may be a losing battle in the long run to fight piracy, at least we can do what we can. Signing a petition or firing off an email takes the same amount of time it does to write a post here, so why not help out?
Response from Worldstream:
Hi,
The website has been taken down earlier today.
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Dirk Vromans
Technical Engineer
Worldstream C.V.
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Although from one of the earlier posts it sounds like the site owner was already planning to move it anyway -- which is what I was getting at earlier. The best you can hope for is to just go chasing him around endlessly.
I saw the same crap over and over in the Palm Treo software world...
The new licensing system might help. =]
Phromik said:
...If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
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Whatever....
Without defending what I consider to be a low-life, who spams every review on the Market, most pirates wouldn't really buy most products they steal, just as most people don't normally pirate stuff they genuinely want and like.
There are a ton of pirate sources for the iPhone, yet good developers do pretty well in the App store.
The only developers whining are the ones who have a crappy product and blame the nebulous evil of "piracy" for their lack of success.
This is outrageous!! Piracy should be free.
I mean that completely tongue-in-cheek, as I spend a LOT of money on android software. I admit I don't hate piracy in general, as a sort of try-before-you-buy system, but charging money for stolen goods is evil. These people are scum.
Former AndroidPlayground.net user
I used to use this site because I just assumed that they had an agreement with the developers. I couldn't even imagine the audacity it would take to charge people for pirated software.
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
NOT trying to justify it, but it is something to consider.
jswanstr said:
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
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I'm just guessing, but so far all data indicates that iPhone users seem to be significantly more willing to pay for apps. I'm hoping this changes as the Android becomes more mainstream.
Related
Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket).
So I think that htc roms must be available in torrents using public trackers and publish in mininova.org, meganova.org or other torrents sites available. If everyone seed some roms they will always be available for public.
What you think about this?
I am down... just don;t know how to package them up or else I would. I get a new pc this week and have though of making my other one a file store...
Hi,
We must build a private network for Forum users, We can use KDX a multi platform peer to peer client/server app, it is like Hotline.
Slimsaturn: BUY A MAC OR USE LINUX BOYCOTT MICROSOFT
Regards,
Taguapire.
boycott microsoft!
i was thinking of upgrading to Vista. now i changed my mind! u dont piss off your customers that supporting u!
Since i have a hermes and i live for xda, I'm backing up the ftp and i'll store it. Possibly setup ftp access for requested users.
I think we should tell M$ to ........................................KISS OUR A$$..............................OUR...................................."ENTIRE......A$$"...............That's what "I" think............................
That being said........ start backing up the ROMS etc...... we'll figure out how to get them out to users.......... if you can download the things from HTC.......why does M$ have their panties in a bunch?????????? Sheeesssshhhhhh what a bunch of CRY BABIES!!!!!!!!
vpu2....OUT!!!!
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
Its the enthusiast that keeps them making money! I am constantly "selling" the merits of M$ powered PPC's to anyone who will listen, I am in the IT industry and have in the last 3 or so years been responsible for over 50 sales of M$ based devices to customers and friends. Because of XDA Dev I will buy a WM device again and again. But if M$ plays the Bully and forces the demise of XDA Dev I will have no reason to by a WM device again. I will then look into other devices such as Sony etc.
I'm sure you are all the same as me, its the the amazing endless customization options that XDA and WM devices offer you that keeps you coming back, without that its no better than any other device.
But sadly Big Corporations don't care, even if we could get a petition signed by 10 000 users they would just shrug and say "So what, there are millions of other users"
What I would like to know is what possible damage can be done by having M$ roms available to M$ customers. Its not like someone can make his own device and then download a rom here. If you use a rom from XDA Dev then you own a M$ device! and you have paid M$ for the rom, Why then are you not allowed to make it better!
No if/when we can get a working Linux solution we can once and for all "dump" M$.
Maybe HTC will bring out a device running Linux in the near future.
Yours in Hope
Jules
As annoying as it is this is the right thing for MS to do to protect themselves.
If it was a little company would you feel less angry?
The only reason you feel angry is due to them being a multi billion dollar corporation beating down on "the little guys" aka us.
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
The way I see it, allowing people to down load different ROM's hurts no one. Al they are trying to do is fix up the defective software. If MS spent more time fixing the defects in their software and less time with lawyers people would not need look around for other ROM's. There is prima facie a very powerful case for a class action against MS for the defects in WM5.
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
ZaJules said:
How are they loosing revenue from XDA Dev?
If they were charging users for updated OS versions then I could see their point of view. But I can't see how XDA Dev can have any negative impact on M$. If I am missing something here then please inform me.
Jules
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Frustrating thing is its not about profit etc... i read that IP (Intellectual Property) law in US states that if you knowingly let ANYONE (not just in US) use your IP without correct license you stand to let anyone do that. Since you have willingly let someone get away with IP infringment you couldnt claim say if the vista source code was used without permission!??
A simple agreement between xda-devs and MS would get passed this but i guess the boffs in the MS law department arent willing to listen. We are possibly the best source of FREE testing and debugging they have!
And may i remind everyone we have ALL paid for a WM license, this is not (as some idiot has said in the "sign the petition" thread) software piracy, it is FREELY available from operators and HTC!
Well, for what I read M$ says that many customers are pissing of their mobile phone providers with roms that are unsupported by that provider.
And for that reason, they say........, roms must not be available here.....
It's fine we can put them elsewhere.
This saves the forum from being shut down or having any legal problems at all. This ensures a long lasting community without having to go underground.
suineg said:
We are talking about tracking down a solution to hacking WM6 to run on a Hermese for starters and I know they will charge for that.
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I will pay for an upgrade, but if they don't make it available I have no moral problem of using a hacked version for the Hermes. It's not that M$ will loose any revenue if the product isn't available to buy. Not having VM6 will not make me buy a new phone faster either. As most of us I guess we're stuck with a 2 year contract or so anyhow.
It seems like a really bad thing on MS' side but really its not that bigga deal.
With so many of us here it is easy to build another database at other places and even servers like rapidshare, megaupload etc. They might take them down but they will be back up very quickly. That being said once the network is made all we need to do is get the word around via PM's as to keep it off the boards to keep MS from being able to do anything. Simple
Upload the roms, have in your sig you have links, give out the links in PM's and we are all good to use xda as the great community it always has been
Cheers
vador said:
Hi all,
I read the thread about M$ that wants xda-developers to take the htc roms from ftp. One more time M$ disappoint their customers that just want to take the max from their htc pockets (We paid 500€ more or less for a pocket, I thing is legitimately that we want to take the max from our pocket)....
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Click to collapse
Actually; it's HTC we should be mad at... If they would release some decently functioning firmware for our devices in the first place, there would not be any need for a ROM archive so we can cook up our own ROM sets...
And i really supect HTC has also triggered this M$ action, because of the appearance of diverse test-ROM's for Trinity and Hermes among others...
Just like someone said before: why do these multi-billion-dollar-bohemoths of companies piss on their customers like this ??? It's truly shocking how they crank out half-working product and kick them on the market, and forget about them instantly (support for existing customers? what's that ...?).
They should better concentrate to work with us, and create a better user-experience for all their customers... But since we have a thing called "world-economy", don't count on it to happen....it never will...
Makes me sad....
ZaJules said:
Why is it that Big corporations treat their customers like dirt!
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Not that I like that the ROMs were removed, it was a very helpful service.
But this anti-MS ranting does not help. MS is not the salvation army, and they do (and have to do) what is legally possible to protect their business interests and that of their customers. The free download of one of their OS is not something to can seriously expect them to tolerate in the long run.
Folks:
Wiki's are editable by everybody... especially the place were "links to roms" are.
XDA will fight any m$ attempts to have us remove links to roms. That amounts to web censorship.
Well I had just made an excalibur torrent, but I like hermes better, I should have everything down tomorrow and a torrent ready then, sucks Im not gonna be able to use orb. if you havent I suggest you register at demonoid.com. there are other torrents there you may find interesting.
It makes me so very sad to see such fantastic projects that people put countless hours into get dumped onto sites like Rapidshare not just because they suck, are often temporary links that disappear, your customers have to go through ridiculous captchas and waits and download and speed limits, but also largely because these companies benefit commercially (ads and selling premium accounts) from your work probably more, I'd wager, than you benefit from donations from people who use your work and manage to give you a few bucks (wild guess).
I don't want to be sad anymore. Just so happens I've got space and bandwidth to spare. If you want me to mirror your Raphael rom, just ask (though I may ask you first) and I'll give you a deep link to post which will look like this -- http://mirror.blownfuze.org/[the rom's filename]
People click it, up pops the download dialog, Save, bam the thing downloads fast with no ads, no donation requests, no nothing. And if you get curious I can let you see how many people download your rom relative to the other roms I'm hosting and where these people are coming from geographically. That's icing on the cake; my primary purpose is to give back to the community without using paypal.
Three prerequisites -- it's gotta be intended for the Raphael, in English and you're a senior member.
Shoot me a message.
I second this motion!!
d0ugie gets it!
Rapidshare drives me nutz...
PS. Thanks Doug.
No offense meant but the problem with mirrors is that they don't last long. At least rapidshare is always there. Its a major PITA when a mirror site goes unavailable.
A BitTorrent pool might be a better option. But that would be dependent on people staying active as well.
i agree...rapidshare is bull$hit!!! and PayPal is a joke as well...help a brother out...
Paypal? Where did that come from?
I forgot to mention that I thought the thread title was a threat when I first read it...I read:
"Stop using rapidshare!! I'll mirror your MOM."
@d0ugie
Great idea though it ONLY makes sense if your mirror is stable.
Hope you know what you are buying into it?!
I have no bandwidth problem either and mirrored 2 Tilt and 2 Raph ROMeOS's... counts go up easy in the 100s of Gigabit/month (almost like on a xxx-site).
Just wanted to make you aware.
Sleuth255 said:
No offense meant but the problem with mirrors is that they don't last long. At least rapidshare is always there. Its a major PITA when a mirror site goes unavailable.
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Hey, a bit of topic but is there any chance there will be any public roms from you sleuth? i id love to see what you've been up to since the kaiser roms =)
+1, Informative
tyguy said:
@d0ugie
Great idea though it ONLY makes sense if your mirror is stable.
Hope you know what you are buying into it?!
I have no bandwidth problem either and mirrored 2 Tilt and 2 Raph ROMeOS's... counts go up easy in the 100s of Gigabit/month (almost like on a xxx-site).
Just wanted to make you aware.
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Hmm. 100Gb/month for romeos links, huh.
Well here's the setup: My own server (blownfuze.org) has a modest link to my ISP. The server and its connection are very stable and sturdy; I know what I'm doing with Linux machines and I've had the link for years without any interruption that I was aware of. On one of the ISP's servers I have a shell account with a 2GB quota and no explicit bandwidth quota, speed or cumulative. The cabs I host on my server and even in peak hours it has not been out of control, not enough that the people I serve websites for with the same machine have said anything regarding latency -- even with HostnameLookups turned on. The radios and roms however I put on my shell and when someone downloads a rom or radio from my server my server redirects them with a meta refresh file to the file on the ISP's server. Based on my trial run over the past month or whatever with my site, guaging how much traffic I'd sting the ISP with on their server with these rom mirrors, I think it's a safe bet my ISP won't object. I'm a good customer, we have a good relationship and they're a strong enough outfit to handle a customer giving out files for people to mess with their phones.
So yes there are now two points of failure, my server and the ISP cutting me off, but I can dodge both problems by, if my server fails, changing the A record on my mirror host on my domain to my office server (we have a ton of bandwidth we don't need) or if the shell thing becomes a dealbreaking issue I can just change the refresh tags on my server to point at my office.
I believe there is a "within reason" understanding in terms of the shell bandwidth usage as this ISP is connected to multiple bluechip telcos and even pumping out dozens of gigabytes a month wouldn't piss them off -- in my estimation. Again I've been a good and profitable customer of theirs for a long time (several years?) and doubt they'd just pull the plug on me but if they did I'd simply redirect those meta refreshes to the server in my office until I negotiated something either with my ISP or another company and would not leave rom authors just hanging. So by having the links go to my server I have control over where they are directed and I also enjoy the bliss of datamining my Apache logs to see whose rom is getting downloaded by how many people and from where those people are located. That's fun to me.
In light of your own experience however it would be prudent of me to have a chat with my ISP to make sure they're cool with this so that I don't make major commitments to XDA folk and then fail them suddenly -- even though I take the basic measures to keep my pages from being googled and botted and can get aggressive with mod rewrites and other Apache tricks to enforce only letting XDA people (not ppcgeeks and strangers from search engines and such), hits with xda in the initial referrer entry, download anything from my server (which triggers the fast shell download).
Nevertheless, for now, I am going to continue to proceed with caution, contact the ISP soon, and take it from there.
Thanks tyguy.
As long as no one uploads on rapidshare, then i'm good. 15 minutes between downloads is KILLER =(
Just wanted to make you aware of the issue d0ugie.
I too have no problems with my host and bandwidth and you seem to have some internet / web hosting experience but as example when i hosted ROMeOS2_150_5_ENG_20759_041208_conFUZEd.zip which was a pre-final it was downloaded 190 times during one day with a file size of 78.78 MB on the server, looking at the start and exit counts assumes some used download managers. Just be careful and get the ducks in line up front.
Let me give you some help to calculate:
Just use Windows "Start" - "Run" - "Calc", take the thumb of your left hand and pick your nose with the index finger of the right hand and make a good gestimate of popular ROM and theme demands and go from there.
Some help, that chickensh*t <essentials> packed behind my "ATT Fuze NOOBs only - Little setup guide. " started 14-12-2008, 05:02 PM is 20.20 MB was downloaded 276 times while the thread was viewed 2,179 times. Not sure if you always can gestimate 10% download ratio over views but ...
Don't wanna be a nerd but don't like get others burned as well.
How about a Bittorrent pool like someone suggested? That is the best idea IMHO. Torrents are always fast and worth it.
That was my first thought but P1Tator didn't take kindly to my post on the subject. Though when a major release gets going there could be added layers of redundancies with multiple trackers, you gotta have someone who knows what they're doing to start this, you got to have people maintain this, you need trackers on a reliable server like xda's and when you do that there must be some careful monitoring over what torrents are hosted by XDA-connected (or even just loosely-afiliated) trackers, who has access to it, which authors are trusted not to include anything sketchy so that an old copy of WMWifirouter or a cracked version of BeeLineGPS doesn't slip its way through the cracks. Not easy to delete an in-the-wild bittorrent share as you can delete a thread.
The word bittorrent itself starts fires. XDA needs to keep a low profile when it comes to its members behaving themselves and when you've got people messing with Microsoft's software and rebranding it as their own and then distributing it over a notorious method it could get ugly.
From a practical standpoint, a bittorrent download takes a while to get warmed up; a direct link from a solid mirror does not. Users have to have an additional client installed. A lot of us do already and those who don't can figure it out but we'd need more how-tos. From the serving standpoint or an additional more complicated database thing you'd find on other bittorrenting sites it just doesn't sound feasible especially when you have some people out there like me who can donate bandwidth (I'm vetting myself to make sure I can do this reliably). We're talking what, 70-100MB files here that people put a ton of time into and people who use these files shell out several hundered bucks for their phone and another hundred a month for their bill. Bandwidth is cheap and if we get people fired up a bit we can figure out how to host our own files without Rapidshare and friends or bittorrent.
Though I still like the idea. Certainly more than rapidshare.
I wrote my ISP a thoughtful letter to see how much is too much in terms of giving out bandwidth for mirroring. When they get back to me I'll get back to you all. If they say yeah sure go ahead, at least for the Raphael forums, problem solved. Mostly.
Kraize said:
How about a Bittorrent pool like someone suggested? That is the best idea IMHO. Torrents are always fast and worth it.
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d0ugie said:
That was my first thought but P1Tator didn't take kindly to my post on the subject.
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P1Tater not P1Tator.
All kidding aside. You have actually hit the nail on the head. Bit Torrents are frowned upon due to the large amount of publicity these create. Noone has ever said this but think about it. We strip shipped roms and tear them to shreds. We also take shipped apps not meant for "all" devices and port them to God knows what. We even have ported other OS to a WM device never meant for anything but WM. Plus, having a cooked rom come up in a torrent search/finder beside WAREZ and other files with virus' inside is not the publicity XDA is looking for. Not trying to come off all high and mighty, just want to keep XDA smooth and as trouble free as possible so we can continue to rip apps, port roms to other devices, and have our wonder developers continue to devlop apps for our devices without having to go to some sort of "store" (cough cough iStore) and buy every app that we want to install on our phones. Please understand, I just want to keep XDA as smooth and as trouble free as I possibly can without any "negative" publicity. That's all.
P1Tater said:
P1Tater not P1Tator.
All kidding aside. You have actually hit the nail on the head. Bit Torrents are frowned upon due to the large amount of publicity these create. Noone has ever said this but think about it. We strip shipped roms and tear them to shreds. We also take shipped apps not meant for "all" devices and port them to God knows what. We even have ported other OS to a WM device never meant for anything but WM. Plus, having a cooked rom come up in a torrent search/finder beside WAREZ and other files with virus' inside is not the publicity XDA is looking for. Not trying to come off all high and mighty, just want to keep XDA smooth and as trouble free as possible so we can continue to rip apps, port roms to other devices, and have our wonder developers continue to devlop apps for our devices without having to go to some sort of "store" (cough cough iStore) and buy every app that we want to install on our phones. Please understand, I just want to keep XDA as smooth and as trouble free as I possibly can without any "negative" publicity. That's all.
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Sleuth255 said:
No offense meant but the problem with mirrors is that they don't last long. At least rapidshare is always there. Its a major PITA when a mirror site goes unavailable.
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Well said and I agree with both of you. Rapidshare may not be for everyone but it does trick for right now.
I understand the hesitation with torrents and not wanting too much attention, but let's face it...Microsoft knows about this site, HTC knows about this site. Torrents aren't going to be any more negative publicity than it's gotten in the past about the FTP, and that was mostly because the files were directly linked to the site.
Hey I hear you with the c'mon argument.
Yes Microsoft and HTC know about us. I've gotten hundreds of hits from proxy server hosts under .microsoft.com downloading everything on my site and HTC has gotten plenty of love letters from us as well as petition websites brewed by XDA people. We don't really pose a threat to Microsoft though one could argue we have a tepidly adversarial relationship with HTC for our criticism of them and our attempts to generate negative publicity against them as well as our attempts to pressure them to do business differently (like with the Kaiser video driver saga). Though XDA may be some server in the Netherlands, we comprise XDA as we are clumped together in the minds of The Man when we do something The Man doesn't like so we, thanks to the likes of P1Tater and other volunteers, have to spend an enormous amount of time cleaning up not just spam and dumb threads but making sure no one posted Skyfire when it was recently in private beta and so on. We're on self-warez-patrol, defcon 1.
You add extracted and redesigned software with different branding artwork, possibly copyrighted software, operating systems, leaked or hacked drivers etc on top of that and you have a large happy community such as ours that is operating in the gray area. We're more good to MS and HTC than we are bad but if they so choose to exercise it they have power over XDA, power to kill XDA, and we must act accordingly. People can post cabs and links but there is some vague protection for XDA, sort of like Slashdot but with attachments, as those are posted by individuals and are therefore sort of owned by the poster not XDA and XDA with their moderators tries to operate in a manner that projects an air of good faith /in addition to/ helping Microsoft and HTC as we are a resource for ways they can produce better products. We're pretty harlmess -- why would HTC care if someone else cleans up after them with GPS driver fixes? Cheapest thing for them to do is copy /our/ work.
In the event of Microsoft or HTC or Opera or whoever developing a major grievance with something that goes down here and sends XDA a cease and decist letter that XDA cannot afford to defend themselves against and must comply with, demanding XDA to take down threads containing *, when you've got bittorrent in the mix as you're suggesting XDA loses the ability to comply swiftly and effectively with such a demand to the satisfaction of these potentially litigous companies if satisfying them includes pulling the plug fully on a proliferation of a file that made its debut here if it's floating around in bittorrent and making its way to the high traficked torrent portals with traces back to XDA.
No one cares about FTP and for these purposes no one even knows what FTP is. Rapidshare (or good samaritan mirror operations like mine) is not on the MPAA's hitlist either. But the reputation of bittorrent, even though those who defend bittorrent adamantly cite that it's great for kosher stuff too like Linux (and us), makes it not an option for XDA as XDA does, again, to some extent operate in a gray area and does not have the resources to do so with the audacity of providing bittorrent solutions in the event it needs to pay legal bills. XDA may not even know how gray our gray area is, doubt we have a lawyer on retainer. I doubt most lawyers would know the answers anyway. Unchartered territory (but gray territory). So XDA has to assume an MO of paranoia. Blending in bittorrent to XDA either with an XDA-sanctioned and maintained portal/tracker or just encouraging users with wikis and such on how to set up their own tracker when they release their own rom, given that there are other options, is bad for business. Now me I am not even going to bother researching how legal these roms are; I am cool with my ISP and I'll assume the risk by putting them on hosts directly connected to me and my identity but you won't find these roms on XDA's ftp server probably not just because their more than 1MB but because they are sketchy in nature. XDA can barely pay for bandwidth with these banners ads that most of us don't see with adblock and the small stream of donations. Where's XDA going to get $20K one day if **** hits the fan? Nowhere. Just because we've got thousands of members here, often extremely talented and good-hearted people, does not make us immune from total destruction and bittorrent gives that doomsday scenerio an elevetated probability.
XDA's doomed at best to walk on eggshells. Bittorrent is a four letter word. XDA cannot, in my estimation, live with it; certainly not when XDA can live without it.
motionmind said:
I understand the hesitation with torrents and not wanting too much attention, but let's face it...Microsoft knows about this site, HTC knows about this site. Torrents aren't going to be any more negative publicity than it's gotten in the past about the FTP, and that was mostly because the files were directly linked to the site.
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d0ugie said:
No one cares about FTP and for these purposes no one even knows what FTP is
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All of the rom files used to be hosted on the FTP, that's all I mentioned that for...were you around for that? Just don't remember how long ago that debacle was.
Also, I know there are invite-only networks and we already have to be a member of xda-dev to download locally hosted files, so what about a private p2p setup?
jonteponte said:
Hey, a bit of topic but is there any chance there will be any public roms from you sleuth? i id love to see what you've been up to since the kaiser roms =)
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Yeah same here.
Is there like a record for the longest written post in a forum?
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
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That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
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IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
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This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.
Im watching the SOPA hearing live now... Mr. Scott is an idiot...
I mean seriously this is a train wreck no experts in the fields allowed most of these old men don't know how the internet works this is horrible.....here is the link to watch it live
http://mfile.akamai.com/65764/live/r...p=39655&prop=n
dont have access it tells me
Im sorry one sec ill pull up the main link...
http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/mark_12152011.html
Here you go Goodlatte is my rep and i cant stand him...
Anonamoose said:
Im sorry one sec ill pull up the main link...
http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/mark_12152011.html
Here you go Goodlatte is my rep and i cant stand him...
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thanks much
NP it's a shame that more people arn't interested in this. If the bill passes as is EVERYTHING will change on the internet for those of us here in the states, even here on XDA. For example one member here posts a illegal link and the mods miss it. BAM no more XDA for us here for days. Which hurts there revenue which is based on hits so less money plus legal fees. This is gonna hurt bad. And for those that say proxy. I'm talking about our economy and our freedom. This'll hurt businesses and ISP's which means things will change for US the end users dramatically.
Anonamoose said:
NP it's a shame that more people arn't interested in this. If the bill passes as is EVERYTHING will change on the internet for those of us here in the states, even here on XDA. For example one member here posts a illegal link and the mods miss it. BAM no more XDA for us here for days. Which hurts there revenue which is based on hits so less money plus legal fees. This is gonna hurt bad. And for those that say proxy. I'm talking about our economy and our freedom. This'll hurt businesses and ISP's which means things will change for US the end users dramatically.
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For context, under this bill a screenshot could be an illegal link.
xeper said:
For context, under this bill a screenshot could be an illegal link.
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Very true it could be.
Ah Mr Scott the voice of the people passing it. He's so in touch with this and us. [end sarcasm]. Wonder how much stuff he's getting from the MPAA for this one...
Mr Scott " We don't need to hear experts in this field to pass it " Oh god yeah we don't need informed decesions at all in Congress....
Looks like there will be 2 (non military) nets. The no cost one which won't be free but censored, and a paid one where all users will have to agree to open terms similar to our current one. More stratifying of society as we have known it. Cypher and methods to hide info will be abundant. Stuff will make the ja panese int ern et police look like boy scouts.
Proxies are currently not blind so who cares about them. They threw the guy in jail who ran the only true blind proxy anyway. Some MIT guy that built a system that the NSA couldn't trace packets through.
I think if this bill passes I'm just going to go back to snail mail and reading books. I'll sell the Evo 3D and buy some dumb phone that only makes phone calls.
This mixed with the bill that will allow the government to arrest and detain any American for as long as they like and even torture them and you have one seriously dangerous combination.
http://rt.com/usa/news/obama-detention-veto-defense-853/
I hate this bill, and what sucks is that we will still be censored if this doesn't pass. In fact, most likely the bill won't pass. However, some derp is going to propose something like Protect-IP which is less crazy (but still bat**** crazy) and that bill will be passed. And since the people that want it passed know ****ing nothing about the internet, it's even more of a slap in the face.
They should really just take the law, and keep it away from the internet.
I might be the only one out there but I really never thought that SOPA was that bad.
Stopping a domain from resolving to an IP is like sweeping dirt under a carpet.
ColdH33t said:
I might be the only one out there but I really never thought that SOPA was that bad.
Stopping a domain from resolving to an IP is like sweeping dirt under a carpet.
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Read up more on SOPA and you'll understand why.
ColdH33t said:
I might be the only one out there but I really never thought that SOPA was that bad.
Stopping a domain from resolving to an IP is like sweeping dirt under a carpet.
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So much larger than that. It gives the government and large companies the ability to decide what we can read, not just download, and pirate. Then the ability to arrest someone for using their first amendment right, under the guise it somehow obscurely fits under SOPA. The first amendment being trampled upon is a slippery slope.
So someone posts something on twitter that violates intellectual property rights, and the whole site is unresolvable. Same with you tube, Facebook, and xda. Its like using a nuclear bomb to kill a fly in your kitchen.
Go read SOPA more, if you still feel the same way then god help us all.
God I hope this doesn't pass or the protect ip bill...
Sent from my PC36100 using xda premium
Reply that I received from my rep Roy Blunt:
Dear xxx,
Thank you for contacting me regarding S. 968, the Protect IP Act.
Intellectual property industries employ more than 19 million people, making it an integral part of our economy. Rogue websites dedicated to the sale and distribution of counterfeit goods and pirated content are a direct threat to these jobs and to entrepreneurs growing and building legitimate businesses online.
Businesses have lost $135 billion in revenue annually as a result of these rogue sites. Customers have also beenharmed by these sites; for example, online pharmacies that don't adhere to U.S. regulations have been reported to cause a rapid increase in prescription drug abuse.
Ia m a cosponsor of the Protect IP Act which would cut off foreign websites dedicated to counterfeiting and piracy that steal American jobs, hurt the economy, and harm customers. It would allow the JusticeDepartment to file a civil action against those who have registered or own a domain name linked to an infringing website. The bill does not allow the Justice Department to target domain names registeredby a U.S. entity.
Innovation is a cornerstone of our nation's economic growth. Proper intellectual property protections and incentivesensure that inventors develop products that benefit consumers. Without such incentives for innovators,we risk falling behind places like China and India.
Again, thank you for contacting me. I look forward to continuing our conversation on Facebook www.facebook.com/SenatorBlunt and Twitter www.twitter.com/RoyBlunt about the important issues facing Missouri and the country. I also encourage you to visit my website (blunt.senate.gov )to learn more about where I stand on the issues and sign-up for my e-newsletter.
Sincere regards,
Roy Blunt
United States Senator
Bs
Sent from my PC36100 using xda premium
tgruendler said:
Reply that I received from my rep Roy Blunt:
I am a cosponsor of the Protect IP Act which would cut off foreign websites dedicated to counterfeiting and piracy that steal American jobs, hurt the economy, and harm customers. It would allow the JusticeDepartment to file a civil action against those who have registered or own a domain name linked to an infringing website. The bill does not allow the Justice Department to target domain names registeredby a U.S. entity.
Sincere regards,
Roy Blunt
United States Senator
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So they plan to secretly shut down all foreign websites in the US? Wow, what a bunch of idiots. Help our economy, but hurt the economies of others.
Where are LulzSec and Anonymous when you need them
atrix725 said:
Where are LulzSec and Anonymous when you need them
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Really. This government is just asking for a decentralized DNS architecture to be built by the people. Then they will really be screwed.
Whenever my automated system finds an Android App Review online it sends an email to the developer telling the link to the review.
Each day I get between 5 - 10 thank you mails from both large app companies and indie developers, which I guess is a good indicator that it's a great tool in order to be able to take advantage of the review in their marketing. (I know how hard it is to be seen with a good app)
The question is, how do I monetize that service?
You have to pardon me if I sound desperate, but I actually am desperate and starting to worry about my ability to provide for my family.
Do you have an idea on how I could either monetize the service, or give it away to someone who can actually afford running it?
There are three main problems with it:
- Donations doesn't work (noone evidently donates anyway, so that went down the drain)
- Advertising, might have worked but there are far too few visitors.
- Most dev's have an invalid email address specified for their account at google play, which makes them not receive the notice from the service,
They can however subscribe for reviews of a certain package name, but how the heck could they when they don't even know the service exists?
I feel so stupid for having these great ideas and realize them, just to later find out that the only thing I've gained is more time away from my kids. I am honestly starting to loose all energy for the creation process of apps, web sites and services, just due to the fact that I can't even reach out enough to make anything out of it. And I can't afford advertising the services/apps/whatever crap I've made. Which even might be an indicator that I should stop trying, but I can't really do that either since I struggle to even afford the food for the month, yeah it's gotten that bad, and I hate sounding this pathetic.
Anyway, the link is in my sig called something like 'Android App Reviews' if you wish to have a look in order to give feedback on my question.
Maybe it's just a bad day 'cause I'm not usually this whiny, but even on a good day, the question stands.
Ah.. whatever. You have a good idea, let me know.
Later
very nice idea, perhaps most of your emails mistakenly get weeded out as SPAM. I have an APP published on Google Play with our company gmail address there, but in more than one ocasion we had people trying to contact us and those emails got to the SPAM folder automaticly by mistake and we never saw them.
DarknessWarrior said:
very nice idea, perhaps most of your emails mistakenly get weeded out as SPAM. I have an APP published on Google Play with our company gmail address there, but in more than one ocasion we had people trying to contact us and those emails got to the SPAM folder automaticly by mistake and we never saw them.
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Thanks, actually I was very glad myself when I got an email from my own service once, so yeah I think it's a great idea also.
So yes, one problem is, as you mention that most emails probably ends up marked as spam.
The other problem is money, it's running in a very low priced environment and actually doesn't require much juice to run but I can't afford maintaining it if it doesn't generate enough income to even support itself.
I would consider running it for nothing and I could even spend some personal money just for the satisfaction and appreciation, but given the gravity of the current financial situation in my family I can't do that.
So let's just see what happens, and thanks for taking the time to read.
Cheers
have you tried selling it? For about how much would you be willing to sell it? As i said the idea is pretty awesome and you got it pretty much nailed down. Perhaps with a few tweaks to the search algorithm it could be the next Google for Apps!
have you tried selling it? For about how much would you be willing to sell it?
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- Actually, no I haven't tried selling it yet as I don't have any experience selling these kinds of things, and don't really know where to turn.. So I haven't really thought of for how much I should sell it for,
what do you think something like this could be worth?
Thanks again
Actually i have no idea loool
I would buy it if I had the means.
The value of it probably based on how many views does your site has per day, how many apps does it have categorized, how many it crawls per day... idk.
For example i tried searching it and it seems to have few apps catalogued... my app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rtt3ch.suecaonline) isn't there.
EDIT: About how much do you spend on it a month? If it's not much and you're willing to give it away because can't afford it I wouldn't mind getting it lol, i think i can keep it alive.
If you want to generate income from your site, you have to run your site like a business. The ideas you have in your first post are too linear, especially for a small website with limited exposure (i'm sure you'll know ). Websites and youtube channels grow in exposure and size exponentially. Your site is still in the growth state of a business life cycle (the slowest, most challenging phase of business), so it's best to get as much exposure as possible, which means expanding.
- Try to create some sort of quasi-partnerships with other sites by sharing content or linking to each other. I've noticed you have some links on the side of your site, but try to get in contact with 'bigger names' out there
- Create a youtube channel and start reviewing apps like that. That way you have another avenue of traffic to your site
- Reviews of products may also be an idea.
Hope this helps It's what I can remember from business studies classes >.<
sup MetalDroid, any news?
I'd go with what SammiSaysHello said, you need to run it like a business. Personally I'd make the homepage look more like a professional a sales page and introduce a subscription fee if you want to use it for more then one app. Or even a one time fee for more then one app. I end up logging onto my developer console several times a day so I'd gladly pay a couple bucks a month to have the reviews sent straight to my inbox.. Just my two cents
Hey!
Sorry for not posting an update, I've been having the mother of all flues on and off for the past several weeks now!
sup MetalDroid, any news?
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Well, actually yes. The associated twitter account is growing, and the number of web page visitors is also increasing. Very slowly but I'm still positive about it. I've also, shockingly, had a few interesting partnership/business proposals drop down in my mailbox, so I'm gonna have a look to see what is offered there..
If you want to generate income from your site, you have to run your site like a business.
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I'd go with what SammiSaysHello said, you need to run it like a business
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Click to collapse
You're right, that seems like a logical next step. I might add a low subscription fee if you wish to use for more than one app,
that seems like a very good suggestion, I'll have to wait a couple of days though to see how things turn out from some of the email proposals
I've had.
If you're interested I'll keep you updated on what happens, and I'm very grateful for your input,
Cheers