Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
I agree with you in principle, but it kind of defeats the purpose of open source and XDA, doesn't it?
johnny quest said:
Ok, I have a great plan (this might have been discussed already) but here's my suggestion:
All Rom developers should charge for their work. I'm thinking maybe 3-5 dollars. and if its still in Work in Progress we can still be charged but don't charge for upgrades. This way the out of work developers can get something for their hard work. I just create images and that takes time. I can't even imagine how much time is spent on the roms.
Believe me I would pay for all you guys roms. Donations are great but not enough to inspire to create more roms or even spend time on them. I don't know if this is possible but you guys deserve a lot more credit.
thats my feelings on this issue.
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That's a flattering sentiment but does rather contradict the core principles behind open source in general. If not for its openness and freely available source I doubt you would see the level of progress there has been in the android community.
I'm sure the devs themselves will chime in. Just my two friendly cents
Sent from my CM7 Tazz using XDA App
its not Necessary but its a nice gesture i dont want anyone feeling obligated ,, times are hard for everyone ,, but thank you
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
ILikeBubbles said:
i don't know if you've noticed but most devs have a 'buy me a beer' link where you can donate if you wish. i know if i had a job i'd be donating $20 at a time or so depending on how much i was getting paid. until then its nice to know that even though i can't pay, i can still get the best. Google > Apple. it's not always about the money.
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In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
Cheatman1 said:
In most cases everything always comes down to money. Unless your living with your parents still or your younger then it's one thing but still at the end of the day most things come down to money.
I'll agree with you on Google > Apple
I own a Iphone4 and the Droid Eris and I still like the Eris hands down no matter what even though the Iphone4 runs everything very smooth the concept of android is far better than most apple users can ever be able to dream about.
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dear god that signature quote made my brain hurt just trying to read it.
Haha your signature is great. It made me laugh pretty hard.
And as for this discussion, I don't think they can MANDATE you pay for anything. Like it has been said, its open source and if people want to donate they will. I wish I had a job so I can donate, and as soon as I get one I know I will be. But for now I'm enjoying the work these guys are doing, and hope it continues.
I mean, we're getting Gingerbread on the Eris thanks to the devs here. That's two versions more than what the Eris was thought to get. That to me is incredible.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the open source. the donate link is nice to have and I am guilty of not using that to show appreciation. I will use it more frequently. The Eris is great but I'm stuck not able to load certain apps because it requires a higher than 2.1 version. I'm up for an update and looking into the Thunderbolt most likely. Hopefully there will be a thread on this phone for Roms in the future.
I agree, there should be a way for ROM makers to get paid for their time. Likely, its illegal or a breach of some sort of contract/agreement/gobbledygook somewhere.
The developer for my favorite Eris ROM's, Tazz is having back issues and can't work, so this very issue is very relevant. I make sure and send him donations whenever possible.
For now, just send your favorite ROM devs donations through the links provided.
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
GPL violation anyone?
You'd have to include the source code with said paid work, and post said paid work's source code publicly, not disallowing anyone from modifying it or redistributing it. Wouldn't last long.
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
jadesdan said:
Plus, if the devs charged, then the CM team would charge them, and the google would charge then......... it would end up being way more than 3-5 bucks.
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+1
We'd have to throw some cash at the Hero devs too lol, and pretty much everyone that helped them,and on and on
Sent from my GSBv1.2 using XDA App
Good intentions! I am glad some people still think of the devs.
I have donated in the past, and will continue to do so. We are running GB on an Eris now! Without the devs, we would all be on Cupcake and hating it.
I'd like to take a second to thank the devs and the COMMUNITY as well. I have received lots of help here from regular joe's like me that are just looking for the latest and greatest, as well as the devs that make the magic happen.
We should all thank our lucky stars that we have been provided a place to share ideas, get help and help Android and other platforms evolve into new, fascinating and useful apps/OS's.
Thanks to the WHOLE community! I would pay each and every one of you if I could!
If you like something like this enough, why not do it for free? Especially in this kind of work.
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
bftb0 said:
There is not a single thing in open source licenses which prohibits people from charging for services rendered; it is a complete misrepresentation - and frankly a disservice to the Open Source community - to state that open source means "no money involved".
Open Source licenses only prohibit distribution of derivative works without also providing source code. As an example, it would be completely legal for someone to set up a paid web site where there is a charge to download the Linux source trees. In this (ridiculous) example, what is being paid for is the service - the license is satisfied because you are providing the source code.
Having said all that, note that "all of android" is not open source; in particular, the Google Apps, (HTC Sense, Motoblur, etc) and certain hardware-specific libraries are proprietary goods - even so-called "Pure AOSP" dev ROMs contain a small number of vendor libraries, which are technically illegal to redistribute.
I suspect that the legitimate owners of those goods turn a blind eye to small amounts of infringement because they can not monetize their legal actions (no blood from a turnip, etc); but also note that when infringement achieves a certain scale (as it did with CM and Google), they will certainly step in - the issue there has little to do with money; it's more about a legal principle of loss of rights due to failure to defend those rights in the face of significant infringement.
Charging people when you are infringing is a pretty sure way to get the attention of the infringed party.
bftb0
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Conap said:
It's nice idea that you guys want to give back but honestly if deving was a paid gig I don't think you would have as good as results. I do it myself cause I tinker by nature and like to help other people. You will get a better end product if you have a dev that does this cause he likes it and not just cause he want to make money. Look at the number of useless apps on the market cause people just want to make money. Nothing wrong with making money and I myself sell apps but roms are a different ballgame. Plus rom dev's rarely write code of their own except for the cyanogenmod team. We all use the source available to us or other peoples work. Plus if you got paid for your rom you wouldn't want competition so who would share their work. If work was not shared in this community then android would not be what it is....
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Click to collapse
IMHO, though there are many excellent views and points regarding all this posted in this thread, and the original intention was interesting, these two answers are the overall most complete and pertinent.
Way to go, guys!
ufmace said:
I use KaosFroyo on my Eris; I appreciate all of the work that has gone into it, and I have kicked some $$ back to Kaos for his efforts. That said, officially charging for ROMs sounds like a big mess for a bunch of reasons.
First off, how do you actually enforce it? Are we gonna set up some kind of ecommerce website? Do billing and customer service? It'll generate a bunch of tedious work that has nothing to do with actual ROM development, and paying someone else to do it would probably soak up all of the money. And are you going to sue and go after people who pirate it? But if you don't enforce it, then you pretty much have what you have now.
There's also the different expectations for a paid product. Right now, if some newbie can't figure something out and keeps posting stupid questions without reading the FAQ, then people can tell him to STFU/read the FAQ/release the Kraken/etc because it's a free product being developed by guys in their spare time that doesn't earn them much money. Start charging for it and you change that whole equation around - you now have to hold the newbies' hands or they'll scream for a refund and cause all sorts of trouble if they don't get it. Not to mention the liability - we know every now and then phones get bricked and data gets lost doing this stuff. If it's a paid product, then there may be legal liability for that in some markets. Who's gonna sort that out? Expensive lawyers?
Plus the other objections brought up regarding copyright/licensing of the proprietary libraries that are being used to make these ROMs.
Put it all together, and the current system seems like it's the best solution, even though the devs may not be getting as much money as they really deserve. So throw a few more bucks in the bucket for your favorite ROM.
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Click to collapse
This was a pretty damn good answer, too, if you don't mind me saying.
Related
Guys, theres a movement in the community to get rid of this site which sells access to pirated paid apps. Now, this isnt to promote the site, this is to get rid of it. Please go here and sign the petition. All the information is there. Support app developers who work hard to make our phones better by helping to get rid of these pirates.
http://bit.ly/bkKwaZ
Support your community!
Also, if you follow this link: http://twitter.com/Mini_Lee/status/20682622042 it will take you to the tweet i put out with the petition link directly in it. So if you're one of those people with thousands of followers on twitter, send it out!
Done, and tweeting it.
Signed - thank you to whoever started this petition!
Been following this on Twitter today. Retweeted protests, and just signed this. I'll be honest, I pirate a lot of stuff, but I wouldn't pirate from a hard working Android dev. If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
OP updated with link to RT'able tweet link.
Kusotare, what do you intend to do with the results of the petition?
I checked, their domain is registered through GoDaddy and hidden by DomainsByProxy. I sent an e-mail to DomainsByProxy to see whether they actually respond to information about illegal activity. It has been my experience that such complaints to GoDaddy will go unanswered but e-mail is cheap so I hit them up too.
But in all honesty, this will be a minor hiccup, if it gets them taken down at all. The overall IP block is owned by Worldstream out of the Netherlands (according to the RIPE branch of IANA), although some tools report the actual location as Portugal. If you run a reverse IP lookup (try a good one like YouGetSignal), the web server at the same IP is also host to a bunch of Iranian spam and piracy blogs under the vatanblog.com domain, so my guess is whomever owns the server (which isn't going to be the same as those running the network where the IP block is managed) isn't going to be too worried about the results of a petition.
But I suppose it can't hurt to hit up Worldstream, so I've e-mailed them as well.
P.S. Phromik, speaking as a software developer who has been victimized by piracy, you're a hypocritical tool.
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
s15274n said:
^ really no need for that last part, though I understand why you would say it.
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Really no need for him to roll in here and brag about his piracy, is there?
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
Except he's not bragging... he's being honest.
srqt said:
Fighting piracy is and will always be a losing battle, but when people are actually out there profiting from other people's hard work something needs to be done.
Signed and tweeted and facebooked. I will also follow suit and send emails to godaddy and Domainsbyproxy.
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GoDaddy are the domain registrant. The actual website is hosted on a dedicated server provided by worldstream.nl so you want to be contacting [email protected] as well as the Dutch anti-piracy outfit BREIN at [email protected]
It's interesting to note that the same dedicated server is being used to host several other warez sites including some pornography forums. I'm pretty sure neither the server provider or BREIN would be happy about these.
It's interesting to note that within the last 12 hours androidplayground has been taken offline. However I suspect this was done by the owner rather than any takedown notice. He has already set his twitter account to private and one of the last tweets he sent was about having a new server ready.
To Bad google isn't jumping on this. I mean you see his lame comment on nearly every app that comes out in the market.
What confuses me is why would somebody send him money to become a member knowing he/she is a thief in the first place.
The results of the petition will be sent to the domain registrar, the host and paypal in a three way attack. If all goes well, they'll lose their domain, hosting and ability to charge people through paypal simultaneously. I have already emailed all three of the companies to let them know about the petition.
So yes, while it may be a losing battle in the long run to fight piracy, at least we can do what we can. Signing a petition or firing off an email takes the same amount of time it does to write a post here, so why not help out?
Response from Worldstream:
Hi,
The website has been taken down earlier today.
Met vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
Dirk Vromans
Technical Engineer
Worldstream C.V.
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Although from one of the earlier posts it sounds like the site owner was already planning to move it anyway -- which is what I was getting at earlier. The best you can hope for is to just go chasing him around endlessly.
I saw the same crap over and over in the Palm Treo software world...
The new licensing system might help. =]
Phromik said:
...If pirating Android apps grew, devs might be less inclined to develop good apps for Android.
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Whatever....
Without defending what I consider to be a low-life, who spams every review on the Market, most pirates wouldn't really buy most products they steal, just as most people don't normally pirate stuff they genuinely want and like.
There are a ton of pirate sources for the iPhone, yet good developers do pretty well in the App store.
The only developers whining are the ones who have a crappy product and blame the nebulous evil of "piracy" for their lack of success.
This is outrageous!! Piracy should be free.
I mean that completely tongue-in-cheek, as I spend a LOT of money on android software. I admit I don't hate piracy in general, as a sort of try-before-you-buy system, but charging money for stolen goods is evil. These people are scum.
Former AndroidPlayground.net user
I used to use this site because I just assumed that they had an agreement with the developers. I couldn't even imagine the audacity it would take to charge people for pirated software.
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
NOT trying to justify it, but it is something to consider.
jswanstr said:
One thing I do wonder, why do Android apps cost more than iPhone apps? This might be part of the reason people feel like they are being ripped off by the android developers and say, "screw you then".
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I'm just guessing, but so far all data indicates that iPhone users seem to be significantly more willing to pay for apps. I'm hoping this changes as the Android becomes more mainstream.
Even tho I don't have the device and there is not a recovery yet, I am already working hard on a rom for all of you Fascinate people :] Just check back on this post every so often for the release. I will probably release it when Koush releases his recovery for the Fascinate. Pretty much what this is going to do is de-bloat your phone, fully deodex it and other little things here and there. If you want more roms like this for the Fascinate please donate and buy me one here.
Check back here for updates :]
Very cool! Were your other roms froyo?
I have no problem donating to you. I'm just waiting for a recovery to come along first.
Sent while on the go using Tapatalk.
So this rom wont have froyo?
steeeler said:
Very cool! Were your other roms froyo?
I have no problem donating to you. I'm just waiting for a recovery to come along first.
Sent while on the go using Tapatalk.
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Yeah my other roms were froyo. This wont be froyo yet, I am just going to play around with the system folder for the first 2 releases. Then comes the fun :]
Pretty much a second post of your other "please give me money"... Great that you want to develop a ROM but I am sure I'm not the only one to think you are really just fishing for some money (unlike a lot of other ROM developers who do GREAT work without even asking for a dime)
Isn't the whole "pay me now for work later" something we all learned at a young age never worked out well?
Matt, if you want to do something useful, besides shuffle some icons around and rename system files, come help work out the kernel / source compilation issue(s). Once that's done we'll still have to develop the recovery.
There's no point even discussing custom roms without a custom recovery.
Until then, this is like paying full price for a pre-order for a device that hasn't even been announced.
IMO, this thread should be locked at this point.
wstcoaster07 said:
Pretty much a second post of your other "please give me money"... Great that you want to develop a ROM but I am sure I'm not the only one to think you are really just fishing for some money (unlike a lot of other ROM developers who do GREAT work without even asking for a dime)
Isn't the whole "pay me now for work later" something we all learned at a young age never worked out well?
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Click to collapse
God damn, I'm not fishing for money. What the hell. Wow....I am trying to work on a rom for when the damn recovery comes out and people are giving me ****? I am trying to help what the hell. Wow.
namebrandon said:
Matt, if you want to do something useful, besides shuffle some icons around and rename system files, come help work out the kernel / source compilation issue(s). Once that's done we'll still have to develop the recovery.
There's no point even discussing custom roms without a custom recovery.
Until then, this is like paying full price for a pre-order for a device that hasn't even been announced.
IMO, this thread should be locked at this point.
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Click to collapse
Actually I do a lot more than that so dont be a ass. I am actually going to work on the kernel **** -_- Damn.
wstcoaster07 said:
Pretty much a second post of your other "please give me money"... Great that you want to develop a ROM but I am sure I'm not the only one to think you are really just fishing for some money (unlike a lot of other ROM developers who do GREAT work without even asking for a dime)
Isn't the whole "pay me now for work later" something we all learned at a young age never worked out well?
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Have you even seen his past work? Obviously you haven't, because if you had, you would know Matt is sure to do some great work. It's pretty hard to develop a ROM for a phone he doesn't have though, hence, he's asking for donations.
If you don't have the means to donate that's not a problem - no one is expecting you to of course, but don't give a developer **** because he wants to make this phone better.
Matt4542 said:
Actually I do a lot more than that so dont be a ass. I am actually going to work on the kernel **** -_- Damn.
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I agree cut the man some slack im sure he does great work and he said he would release it AFTER a custom recovery is out. Keep doing what you're doing dont let what some people are saying bother you.
Pandemic187 said:
Have you even seen his past work? Obviously you haven't, because if you had, you would know Matt is sure to do some great work. It's pretty hard to develop a ROM for a phone he doesn't have though, hence, he's asking for donations.
If you don't have the means to donate that's not a problem - no one is expecting you to of course, but don't give a developer **** because he wants to make this phone better.
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I did not mean for this and the other thread to turn into a flame war. I just know that in the android community, a lot of users have been burned by donating to "devs" (chefs) and then the "dev" bails.
The work he has done on the Droid 2 does seem to be good for that phone, and thats what that phone needs. The fascinate though, is a different beast. More power to him if he wants to help. But begging for people to help him buy a phone before we even have a means to install his roms leaves a cheap taste in my mouth.
I want to thank any dev that has interest in developing / cooking up roms for the phone, as people will enjoy their phone more. I just ask that said devs wait for people to finish developing a simple and safe way to install the rom. I released a rom for the fascinate last week that had most of the bloatware removed, but the only way to flash it is by odin, not a preferred / safe way to flash the rom.
Just hold your horses. we will have a recovery soon, and like i said in the other thread, then you can do what you want with your money. But i assure you, we will have a lot in store for the users once that hurdle is passed.
Umm... get donations from the d1 and d2 work that you've already done, buy a Fascinate, create ROMs for that, and THEN (if it's a halfway decent job) people will donate without you even needing to ask them. Why ask people to pay for something that you haven't even done yet but then reassure them it'll happen because of your other work? If what you did with the d1/2 is good then shouldn't you be able to get donations from that? I'm not accusing you of trying to scam people I'm just telling you what seems to make the most sense.
I agree with everyone else why not use the donations from your other devices to get the Fascinate then when you make a rom that is as amazing as you say people will donate and you will come out on top. Yes I have seen your work as I have had several droids and my wife has a droid2. Have you seen Cyanogen's work? Or how about the other cooks? Why should we buy you a phone and not them? I have donated to lots of cooks but never before a product was available and not even a promise of first beta tests or anything, no deadline? Come on, man! Like the other member said would you pay mercedes (we have all seen there work ) money to build a factory on the promise that when it is done being built they will give you a car that may or may not be to your liking. I have to say your other roms werent my taste but they were very good. Having said that I am looking forward to donating once roms are available, nothing personal I have nothing against your screen name which is really all I see it just has to do with my own preference.
On another note I remember when this actually resembled an open source community (i.e. the linux community) I googled your name and every single forum there is something with you asking for donations, I understand you have to call them donations because of the license but lets face it you are selling products. Thats not really what opensource is about.
Sorry for the rant everyone, no hard feelings
erasmogjr said:
I agree with everyone else why not use the donations from your other devices to get the Fascinate then when you make a rom that is as amazing as you say people will donate and you will come out on top. Yes I have seen your work as I have had several droids and my wife has a droid2. Have you seen Cyanogen's work? Or how about the other cooks? Why should we buy you a phone and not them? I have donated to lots of cooks but never before a product was available and not even a promise of first beta tests or anything, no deadline? Come on, man! Like the other member said would you pay mercedes (we have all seen there work ) money to build a factory on the promise that when it is done being built they will give you a car that may or may not be to your liking. I have to say your other roms werent my taste but they were very good. Having said that I am looking forward to donating once roms are available, nothing personal I have nothing against your screen name which is really all I see it just has to do with my own preference.
On another note I remember when this actually resembled an open source community (i.e. the linux community) I googled your name and every single forum there is something with you asking for donations, I understand you have to call them donations because of the license but lets face it you are selling products. Thats not really what opensource is about.
Sorry for the rant everyone, no hard feelings
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Are you serious? I only started asking for donations like a week or two ago and I have been developing roms for a few months.
I'm just excited we're close to seeing some dev work. I wholeheartedly believe in donation as a support system for development. I do not however donate to theory.
I will be throwing some paypal love once I see some good dev work on here.
Matt4542 said:
Are you serious? I only started asking for donations like a week or two ago and I have been developing roms for a few months.
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Matt, Don't take this the wrong way. I do think you're a good and honest developer based on comments i've read on the ROM you've done on Droid. I've been around this forum for a long time and have given my hard earned cash to many worthy developers and others. Donations typically are to support a website, finance a developer for his time, and/or buy hardware needed, etc... This forum has changed a bit in the last decade and some here may not understand how this all works. We do this as either an investment or a reward. Reputation is everything though. And that is why some here are hammering you.
Since you're new to us, if you don't mind, introduce yourself, tell us your skillsets, tell us what you bring to the table? Alot of us are tech heads and would appreciate that.
This website changed once Android became popular. The WinMo community was smaller and calmer. Android has blown everything up.
orateam said:
Matt, Don't take this the wrong way. I do think you're a good and honest developer based on comments i've read on the ROM you've done on Droid. I've been around this forum for a long time and have given my hard earned cash to many worthy developers and others. Donations typically are to support a website, finance a developer for his time, and/or buy hardware needed, etc... This forum has changed a bit in the last decade and some here may not understand how this all works. We do this as either an investment or a reward. Reputation is everything though. And that is why some here are hammering you.
Since you're new to us, if you don't mind, introduce yourself, tell us your skillsets, tell us what you bring to the table? Alot of us are tech heads and would appreciate that.
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ludeboy said:
This website changed once Android became popular. The WinMo community was smaller and calmer. Android has blown everything up.
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eh, i remember a lot of drama going on in the CDMA forums all the time. We had chefs that would rip off of other chefs and claim it as their own just to get more donations / money for their "work"
I have never asked for donations, as the work i do is to better my own phone so why not help everyone else? I just started posting a link to make a donation to world vision in my new posts, because if people are willing to donate, why not have them donate to a great cause?
fallingup said:
I have never asked for donations, as the work i do is to better my own phone so why not help everyone else? I just started posting a link to make a donation to world vision in my new posts, because if people are willing to donate, why not have them donate to a great cause?
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The good ol pocket PC days. Trying to make WinMo 5 act like a reasonable touchscreen interface. I remember using the kitchens to experiment and make my own custom ROM's. We all made windows CE registry tweaks to do all kinds of things. Windows was easier to program for. I had many custom programs that i openly shared directly with users (M$ didn't like us sharing). I hope Android users get that this is simply a labor of love for us hobbyists. If i wanted a phone i wouldn't customize much but had a lot of features, i'd stay with the iPhone. I've been playing with APPDeveloper to get my feet wet, and soon will have some custom programs myself once i get off it and transfer to eclipse coding.
development fascinate
Matt..
How much will it take for you to get a phone to use for development? now that we have a recovery available......
Alright here's the deal. I have an app idea for a game that I plan on creating that is very simple, and I have a good feeling it will take off. My worries is that developing it will almost be pointless because of the lax android market policy. I am a new programmer, so my worry is I will make the app pretty decent, and some more experienced programmer will be able to duplicate it and make it better. This just doesn't seem right. I know this happens all the time (Fruit Slice, for example, is a Fruit Ninja knockoff and it's free).
Android is a love it/ hate it relationship. Users love being able to download just as good of knockoffs for free, but I'm sure this is a major turn off for developers who worked hard on their original idea's, just to have it undercut by another developer who will offer a similar (or even better app) for free. Part of me wishes I could just develop it for iOS, but I don't have a Mac or iPhone, and don't ever plan on getting one.
My question is, is there anyway to stop it? Like a patent, or something similar? This is my major hesitation to developing for android. I know I'm not going to be the best programmer out there, but it's the idea that make the apps, and that's where I feel like (I'm sure a lot of other people do too) I could do some contributing. Let me know how you guys feel about this
Anybody? 10Char
welcome to programming for any platform. There are (free) alternatives to almost every single program (android-based, windows-based, etc...)
I think you're in a very bad place to ask about that question. Programmers are usually not at all fond of patents since they tend to be overly broad, hard to detect and generally of low quality. (In case you haven't noticed that's also my opinion)
But yes, if that's what you want to do, a patent would be the way to go. Copyright protects your code, but not your idea.
Make it free. Put ads on it. If it takes off make an iOS one
Sent from my MOTWX435KT using XDA App
As far as I can remember, from my Intellectual Property Law class, software (i.e. apps) cannot be the subject of a patent. But of course, this changes from country to country.
Here are some links you might want to read up on:
http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/en/patents_faq.html#software
http://www.freibrun.com/articles/articl2.htm
Computer-based inventions... yeah, they're not supposed to be patentable: Not in the US and even less in the EU. The key point is how computer-based inventions is defined. The standard way around it is simply to patent "a machine doing XY" instead of "XY"
Basically, the patent clerks don't check for anything but formalities. I used to help out on the peertopatent platform, but it just became ridicolous because the clerks would let everything through no matter what prior art or explanations of obviousness we provided.
Patenting is the worst thing you can do. Don't you read all the patent BS going around lately? Also, spending money on a patent won't be enough, you'll also need to spent money enforcing it, and you won't make any friends by being a litigator.
All you can do is provide the best product you can come up with and hope for the best. If someone makes something similar but better, well, you'll just have to work harder. Or drop the whole thing.
But as others have said, you'll have this problem on *all* platforms. A practical example, when Nero released their burning app for Linux, my thought was "This is kinda cool, but why would I pay for Nero, when there's K3B and other apps that to the job, but are open source and free?"
The trick is to provide something others don't have. In the case of NeroLinux it's familiarity for ex-Windows folks or dual-booters. In your case it could be more features, better graphics, easier to navigate interface, regularly provided additional content... something in that direction.
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
I might just take a break all this drama stuff is like high school and post my stuff else where or keep it until its ready
adslee said:
Let me just start by saying that X is one of the very few developers that actually owns the device. And in an even rarer case, he owns one with S-Off. This in itself means that he's able to develop for the Amaze a lot easier than other developers.
I don't think he has a problem working with others, it's just that the pickings are slim. It's hard to find people to work with if you're the only one with the device that has S-Off. Also, the lack of S-Off on the majority of the devices only turns developers away from the Amaze, which is a real shame and a failure on HTC's part
From what I see around the forums, X doesn't seem like he has a problem working with others, in fact, all evidence goes to support that he encourages other developers to pick up on the Amaze development (bounty threads, etc). X is already doing a fantastic job and I know his work will only be even better as more developers join the Amaze community, we just have to be patient.
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Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
xboarder56 said:
i work with others that know there info etc preludedrew nrgz but revoultion is just trying be like a want a be person you know. People that dont know anything and just try to act like they do. I hate that kind of person and i have posted before about asking for etas and you might not all know but i had rev on gtalk for a while till he started trash talking me and keep asking for etas like every otherday. I think you would get tierd of that too so then i deleted him. It takes to much time to teacher a person all that i know im still learning as i go and talk to other devs such as faux123, nrgz, preludedrew, etc. I like working with people that are better then me so i learn i all ready have a private team im working with on ics and it will be posted else where and no more betas becuase of people like rev asking and asking. and has stolen mine and others work in the past.
I think you guys have heard this sang, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I have given rev a bunch of chances to learn and show him how to develop the right way. and it always ends in a bad way.
also most other phones have aosp something to work of libs kernels etc. Im doing this all from the ground up no cm help no nada. We have to make all the stuff on our own aosp kernel etc. not easy todo
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I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
Silentbtdeadly said:
Well, I am new to the device, I've only had mine for a few weeks though I have been following the forums for nearly 2 months.. even with the workarounds that the members of the community bear the burden of, s-off still keeps developers away that much? Many devs I have talked to develop or contribute to devices they don't have.. as long as at least one developer has the device, or they have adequate testers, they seem happy to contribute to the code(I am talking about compiling/building like xboarder is doing with ICS).
I don't want to sound like this post was because I am impatient, but when I read the ICS thread earlier I was bothered by how immediate things escalated, and that the thread got closed over something that seems so petty.
I've worked with a lot of these devices, I've read quite a few forums, and even some of the crappier devices seem to have several teams of devs, and I am failing to see why a device as beefy and awesome as this one hasn't attracted at least a few more.
I saw a bounty thread earlier, and the very fact that people are willing to contribute is one of the factors that made me wonder at the lack of devs here.. I bought this phone because it is simply the best device out there, and I would like to do whatever I can to facilitate the growth and development of our part of the forums. Not having s-off may be a turn off to developing as much as you say it is, but I know several devs that could contribute to the code of any device without ever having it in their hand..
Perhaps the problem is that the members are publicizing enough the need that is here, the contributions of the members in this area would be more than enough to support a much larger number of devs, and that alone I would think would draw some out..
I totally understand, and I hope you take what I said constructively, not negatively. I'm not one of those people that ask for ETAs, I may not be a developer, but I definitely have a good idea of how much time and effort goes into it.. if I had more time(college is a succubus) I could dedicate to anything, I would be trying to make my own contributions.
Revolution may be a total asshat(and I'm thinking he probably is), but if someone were to stumble across your dealings with him without doing the research, they might come to a conclusion about you that isn't accurate at all.
I guess I would ask you, have you reached out to any developers that currently aren't contributing to ask if they are willing to assist? When working with pure code like you are in the ICS build, some could make good contributions without ever having the device in their hands..
I know HTC isn't making this easy, nor are some of the people in the community who show their lack of patience.. but the basis of me starting this thread was because I understand the value of working collaboratively, and I know it isn't always easy to organize-- but in a sense that is one of my knacks, I am a professional facilitator. That also may be why I have been going to college the last four years, it isn't the easiest thing to market(without a degree), but it DOES have its uses..
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nope i got a group all ready working with privatly on this
I don't know much about what's going on behind the (Devs) scene - things between Xboarder56 and CM team, between Xboarder56 and Revolution but based on the facts that I've seen, Xboarder56 did a wonderful job. All the noob tools, Roms - especially his supports. He updates his Rom immediately after someone found a bug, heck, he was so fast at supporting and updating that I am - as an end user, seems to be tired to trying to keep up with his releases.
Based on what I've read in the forum, Revolution is an a**hole - period! And if I were a Mod he would be forever banned due to the fact of kept asking ETA alone - not to mention the bad intention to provoked Xboarder56.
There is a mutual benefits between Dev and end users. If you are a good Dev with a lot of followers, you will become popular and that will helps with your career (i.e Steve Kondik and Samsung). Devs built Rom not just for fun, they also built up their porfolio/resume if they wanted a good job in hi-tech field and a good reputation when putting their app on the Market.
On a personal point of view, I don't care if there is only one Dev in the Amaze forum because without many of them I still be able to get ICS when it's due from Tmobile. Flashing custom Rom is more like a hobby to many of us here and if I don't have their support I still be fine with my phone - using Stock
Another thing needs to be point out and one may not agreed with me but a Stock Rom is always better than any custom Rom. I means looks at Motorola's announcement just a few days ago when they are looking for testers for their soon to be update software, they are looking for one thousand tester and when a Mfg. released their final product, they usually testing it for months before.
As with us? Every time when we flashed a new Rom we tend to check on some basic function as wifi, tethering, bluetooth, gps and stuff like that and we were testing it for a few minutes - until it crashed or bootloop a day later. We rarely have a chance a test the Rom while doing multi-task with hundreds of apps on different environtments, i.g using GPS while listening to Music on a trip and taking/receiving phone calls while another party on hold at the other end and at the same time googling for a nearby restaurant, ect ... How many of us doing such intensive test on our beloved new Rom for a long period of time? I'm doubtful.
To top it off. More Devs? Great! I appreciates their effort and I am thankful. I will consider a donation if I think the Dev is devoting to his work and fully support his followers and deserved his rewards. If there is none? I either continuing using my phone with Stock and after a few months, Ebaying it or throw it on my local Craigslist and buy another phone - happily ever after! If there is a single Dev out there thinking that us users would have no where to go to without their work. They are wrong!
Mutual beneficial is the name of this game. Without users and testers - Dev is nothing but a desperate wannabe tech-guy looking for a job without a good looking porfolio/resume. No chance to practice and/or testing your product. Without Devs, users would have no fun and his phone purchasing cycle will be shorter hence carriers and Mfg. can sell more phones! That's about it!
Enough ranting and my appologies for those who hates long post.
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
Followed amaze forums since xboarder was first rooting it.
Wonderful job.
Keep up the development.it will make you grow as a person.
Just cut off the negative people.
Binary seems to actually moderate these threads,which I don't see much of on xda.
Xboarder...I chose the amaze because you are here.
That revolution character is laughable.I have a few devices,and he's popped up in a few,and basically been shunned.its his fault(for getting shunned).
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
You're good at what you do.
Keep doing it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Thanks! It's difficult to find balance between the forum and my personal life but I do what I can. Also keep in mind that I moderate more forums here on XDA at the same time as do a lot of forum moderators. So if you don't see them in other forums frequently then use the report post feature and report the thread. Your FSM will be alerted to investigate the reported issue.
sunlaw2 said:
But remember,like in football...
The ref calls the foul on the Guy who responds,not the one who commits the foul in the first place.
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Umm....shouldn't the ref call the foul on the guy who actually committed the foul in the first place? Just sayin.
Silentbtdeadly said:
I realize this post may not make me popular, but this community isn't about popularity so much as it is about working together as a community, for the community.
I had a post ready on my phone, but for some reason the xda or tapatalk app sometimes puts my phone in a boot loop.. anyways:
As best as I can tell, we have one solid developer(no offense to anyone else if they are deving) who is working with source. One person working on ICS, and putting out roms for our pleasure. Xboarder, it is awesome that you are able and willing to put the time and work into this phone like you have, and I thank you.
I am curious about one thing though: Is xboarder opposed to working with others?
This is in no way to stir up trouble, but I have seen multiple posts of problems between revolution(and maybe others?) and xboarder. I would have posted this in that thread, but it is locked I am assuming because of those problems. This thread is not about blame, it is to point out that who is at fault doesn't matter. If another developer was considering this device they aren't going to try to see who is at fault, they will assume that neither party works well with others.
It is admirable that someone so young(xboarder) is able to step up and do what many people older than him cannot, developing and working on projects like he has.. but is seems like people handle him with kid gloves(pun NOT intended), perhaps out of fear they will lose the only developer currently working with our device, but this is an opportunity for xboarder or anyone else to develop professionally. It is one thing to be able to do something by yourself, from the ground up, but our ability to work with others while utilizing the skills we would have by ourselves is something extremely desired in the professional world, or is valuable in life itself.
XDA is a community, each of us contributing our experiences and what we have learned with each other, that is what creates progress. Some contribute financially, some trouble shoot, some test, some develop, but consciously or not we are all working together to some degree. This is the ideal.
Most devices that have a working ICS build have more than one person, sometimes teams of people, working on the project together. They check each other's work, offer knowledge, divide the workload.. many could work individually, but in almost all cases the final product is better by working collaboratively.
An adult trait that many adults don't have, is the ability to turn the other cheek. Or to reach out to others for help. To overlook offenses. Don't deny xboarder the chance to step up professionally. Give him the opportunity to learn how to pick and choose his battles, to share glory, to learn and teach others by letting him do it on his own.
Xboarder, please don't take anything I've said offensively, but if you can, consider it objectively. You probably haven't had the chance to work with others on a large group project, to collaborate. Maybe revolution(I don't know if he is a dev or who is at fault, etc) or others have been an ass, but don't let that stop you from working with them or others to put together a better product. To free up your resources to do something for yourself, or your own side projects..
I hope no one will flame, blame, or otherwise take this thread as a chance to cause chaos or get upset. I have worked with others collaboratively, people I do like and people I don't, and it is an important thing when you are dealing with projects of this magnitude. That is why you don't see many working ICS builds being created alone, or at the least, you see people building upon other people's work.. because that is what open source is all about. I have worked as a consultant for businesses, trying to figure out what happens in the infrastructure that may be keeping it from a higher level of success.. and that is what I am offering here, a possible insight into what could help this entire community make more progress, helping each person who makes their own contributions however they can. Damn this post got long, I can only hope that it might lead to something productive.
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I totally see where you are coming from. In reality their are people who will intentionally get under you skin any way they can. Even as an adult it still happens. But if theirs anything that I learned in flight school its that you can run into the wind you have to turn into and face it. The thing you push against lifts you up. Team work is crucial in any thing you do really. That's what being a community is about, working together not being divided. I have seen the things revolution has done and in reality he is one of the ones who won't go far. I mean all of this out of respect, but with a device so scares but great that is a reason we should help on another. If HTC won't help then it looks like its up to us. We need to work together and stop being a pain in the ass toward one another. Like I said I'm not blaming anyone its all out of respect.
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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500thanks out of 1500total posts meaning 67% of the time he talks bullsh$t
Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using xda premium
sunlaw2 said:
To be fair.revolution has 500 something thanks.
But if someone persists in annoying others,soliciting donations for bogus "development",etc...
Just let the moderators handle it.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
Silentbtdeadly said:
My thanks to post ratio isn't as high, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. Maybe he will have something to offer, probably not.
If binary sees this, feel free to close the post, xboarder clearly said where he is with other devs, so there isn't much more that needs to be said.
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Thread closed per OP request.
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
th3raid0r said:
Hello All,
In recent events we saw our primary kernel developer completely drop his project and leave. This is a sad thing, but it could have been prevented on both sides. It seems that there has lately been a huge misunderstanding of what working with a community means and what open source means, it is tearing the community as a whole apart.
I. USERS/TESTERS: (this is the part most of us know about)
This can roughly refer to anyone that is not a developer or submitting code, but it can also refer to developers using ROMs or Kernels produced by other developers. Anyone in this position needs to realize that almost ALL Roms/Kernels/Themes are experimental even if considered "stable". There is a reason that on both Rootzwiki and XDA it is common to see developers stating they are not responsible for any damage done to your device or your data.
Device problems will differ from one device to another due to security implementations or new code/hardware or even something else. It needs to be understood that a kernel/Rom release that has bugs may NOT be due to code written by the dev, but by an inherent flaw in the hardware OR the stock code.
What does this mean to you?
Well, in order to function as effectively as possible a general guideline should be followed.
Be Tactful - Lets face it, there are going to be issues with ROMs and Kernels. There will never be a truly 'stable' release. Try to report issues in a polite and friendly manner. If you disagree with a developer, you can let them know, just be sure to be as tactful as possible, also make sure to provide adequate reports and detail.
Detail, Detail, Detail - Many of the newer folks don't know how to access logfiles, but this shouldn't stop you from being detailed. When an issue is come across, make sure to include as much detail as possible. For clarification, ANYTHING that is changed from stock configuration should be considered. For kernels, it is good to include any and all adjustments you have made. If a log can be pulled, DO IT, it won't hurt and the developer has an easier time figuring it all out.
Try to learn - The development community is a big place. By learning, you verify that you can help other newbies down the line, and that you provide more assistance to developers.
II. Developers: (the part less of us know about)
Ah, developers, without all of you, we wouldn't exist. Someone needs to do the work, and you provide the dedication and time. Most of us can't thank you enough. However, it seems that recently a lot of the developers are developing for the wrong reasons and are doing things against the very ideals we all stand for.
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Everyone else - We can pull through this. I have already started researching to pick up kernel development. It will be slow since DSB refuses to assist, but it can certainly be done.
Mods - We can't afford to lose more developers. We have to stop the harassment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
I agree with your post except the parts directed to DSB and Drache because it is a continuation of the feud. Let's just wipe the slate clean and follow the other parts of your comments because they are good guidelines on how to interact with each other.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
dr_drache said:
you, "my friend" need to learn when to stop running your mouth. you spent nearly an hour pretending to care, yet saying dsb/devs should give more back, because we have a contract with the community.
you never stepped on my ego, you were banned for being a luke. you want to quote GPL to the devs and expect us to fall down for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, that is your assumption. I never even once demanded for more. I feel that the actions that have been taken are one of the sloppiest examples of open source development. I am trying to be a reasonable voice. I am trying to keep development going despite our recent setbacks.
I think that at the very least, devs should provide the sources so that development may continue after they decide to leave. Otherwise we loose too much progress.
th3raid0r said:
When developing with a community, ALL developers sign a non-verbal social contract. This contract includes many things.
- You are going to deal with some harassment (can be mitigated by mods) - Some people have bad days, others are asshats.
- Younger members will take you for granted
- Younger members will have difficulty providing detail
- The community will expect support for your product(s)
- Other developers (mostly new developers) will not credit you for your work occasionally (can be mitigated by mods)
All these things and more should be expected when working with a community. As a developer, you need to accept ALL of these things in order to contribute to making the community a healthy place.
Eventually, a developer must leave a device and move forward for WHATEVER reason they choose. This is inevitable, but in order to provide a healthy development cycle a developer should ALWAYS provide their source code for a time after development has stopped. This way projects can live on with other developers or be forked entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
th3raid0r said:
MY COMMENTS ON TODAY:
DSB9938 - You are a fantastic developer and I urge you not to leave. I do believe you are misguided in pulling all your code and preventing others from forking or continuing your work. It goes against all that open source is about. You signed the social contract and you couldn't handle the terms, you wronged the community by breaking the trust you had developed. If you do not return, I can only hope that other, BETTER developers (in skill and ideology) fill your shoes.
Dr_Drache - Seriously? Kicking me from the AndIRC #droid-dna chat because you don't agree with what I say here? Did I step on your ego much? Stopping your s-off development because of all of this as well? You are whats wrong with the developers side of the community. God forbid someone disagree's with you, you either kick them or pull your project entirely. Go develop for Microsoft or some other proprietary company. You have forgotten about what the community really means and what open source is about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Dude, we don't another thread about this lol. I'm not here to harp on this fact, but I'm glad I dumped my DNA while I still had the chance. For some extremely odd reason, people don't know how to act in HTC threads. I definitely don't miss all of this drama from when I had my Rezound.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using xda premium
th3raid0r said:
I do need to get access back to the #Droid-DNA chat, otherwise it is VERY difficult to even begin development.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal. I don't know what went down with you guys over there but maybe you can speak with the powers that be and work out an amicable solution.
jcase said:
No, no no no no no no. No social contract, this is an at will thing, that most of us are not paid for. Some of us do it for a living, and also do it here for fun. We do this for FUN. We do this for our benefit (having fun). I can not be anymore honest, anything I do here, I do for my benefit (Brain exercise and fun). I enjoy Android. The day I no longer enjoy it, I will either leave for good, or take a break like I have in the past. We can leave the playground and go home at any time. In fact I encourage developers to do this from time to time, It helped me greatly.
We do get some *sshat harassment, no we don't have to deal with it. We can ignore it, take it to a mod, or take our cake and go home. I tend to confront it, bad habit of mine
Younger members will take us for granted, some times you have to turn the power off to wake them up, or let them sit a minute waiting for you to release something they want.
Support should be appreciated, but not expected. We have families, jobs, and some of use have a life outside of Android(not saying I do ).
Most people who steal work, are not developers. They are general *sshats, that is all.
RE: DSB9939: Sorry but take your social contract somewhere else, it doesn't even make sense. He didn't sign, didn't verbally agree, wasn't paid, rarely got a pat on the back. This is the guy who is the reason you all have root/unlock, and you are breaking his balls. Yeah no Beaups and I are not the reason, we were just the way to a means.
RE: Dr_Drache: AndIRC is not part of XDA, we are separate and really what goes on there doesn't belong here. If you have an issue, take it to me, Zifnab, TheFuzz4 or DougPiston. It is a PRIVATE server, and people are welcome at operator discretion. We are allowed to limit it to like minded people, or even to just be grumpy and randomly remove people if we wish (we don't normally). If you want to talk about it, you know where it is, and how to get ahold of me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Sigh.
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
orangechoochoo said:
Requesting the community to be civil and then throwing in some parting shots is not ideal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
dsb9938 said:
You want a contract? What does the guy on the other end get out of the contract?
I make the things I make so that I can run my phone how I want to run it. That's the only reason. I do not make them for you, or to look like some smart guy, or for my ego. I am the first to admit that I don't know a damned thing about coding. What I make takes hard hours of trial and error. Basically pounding on things till I slowly figure out how they work and bend them to do what I want.
And I do it for days on end. Till it works well enough for me to run on my phone. And I AM PICKY. I want it to be perfect. However, I also share what I make. I share it so that others who want to have their phone run the way I do, don't have to work so hard to get there.
Now comes the rub. There are billions of people in the world. And I bet if you put every phone next to every other phone, you would still not find two setup and/or used the same way. Because of that, I cannot test every possibility. When people come to me with something that doesn't work, do I just say no? Of course not. I made it. I feel responsible for it working correctly.
Now, having determined that I am not a coder, what do I do? First I go ask other people who are much smarter than I am. People like jcase, beaups, imoseyon, show-p1984. These are the real coders/android hackers in the world. They look at the code and actually know what it's doing. They don't have to try to arm wrestle with it to figure out what's wrong.
If that doesn't work, I beat on it. I look at logs. When you post those logs in my threads, there's a bunch of people who read them, not just me. And if I can figure it out, with what help is available, I fix it. If not, I say so. Half the time, what's in those logs is of no help, a quarter of the time, it's in there what happened, but it wasn't related. And lets not forget those logs are usually thousands of lines to read through.
Do I claim to be perfect? Hell no. But I do my best. And that's the very limit of what anybody else on the site has any particular right to ask me for. Nothing more. I try to let slide all of the little digs that people use when things don't work right. But over time it gets to you, ya know? And you guys only see the public stuff, in the threads. You don't see the PMs. And see the people who come online to the chat. You have no clue.
Now top that off with people twisting my words to insult me. I basically said that there are other reasons you can have problems with your phone. I did not say it wasn't my kernel, I said it wasn't in the logs. And I have this guy come in and say yeah, mine runs fine on stock. Seems our phones are only crap on your kernel. Now how did you honestly expect me to react?
I have asked this guy more than once to not run my kernel because he has these outbreaks. This was not the first one. And if you go look through his previous postings, you can see his doesn't only disrespect me, he has outright disrespected MODs as well. This makes me wonder why he was still around to bother me in the first place. But that's beside the point.
Now anybody who thinks I'm curt with others, go read the stuff I've had to put up with and see how long you can take it. I have no problems with people posting when they have an issue. And I can tell you right here and right now, my stuff isn't perfect. But when I tell you I can't find it, or fix it, that doesn't give you the right to flip out and go off on me. That means you go back a version and wait till I make a new one, or you go run something else. I even made a simple stock one for those with issues to run so they could have system write if they had issues.
I DO NOT MAKE ANYBODY RUN MY STUFF.
Now, having said all of that. Put yourself in my shoes and see how happy you would be.
D
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, I totally understand all of that.
I have made some tweaks myself, but I don't publish them because I know they don't have much application outside of myself.
I do know where you are at, I work at a large legal software company as a QA Analyst. I KNOW the daily grind on this.
The harrasment won't always go away. Hell, i get it here in a large company. It can be mitigated by a few things. For example you can use a smaller community.
You don't have to deal with these things at all, but if you leave on such bad terms without a way for someone to pick up where you left off, it doesn't leave a good impression on the rest of the community.
The fact that you don't know code makes this all the more impressive. You are a fantastic problem solver, it shows, maybe we can find some way to lessen the blow for you and yet continue public development?
th3raid0r said:
A social non-verbal contract is never an official thing.
In a most basic form it is the trade of safety/stability for a service when it comes to political science. They apply everywhere.
The reason we are no longer roaming nomads is due to social contracts.
I am not saying that this social contract is why you guys develop. It is the generalized community expectations. They are going to vary from member to member as well.
I understand Support is not expected, on your end, however it is essential to a successful project and furthermore it is essential to reputation. Reputation garners donations and therefore some developers incomes.
Most of my other points also follow this same logic.
A healthy community flourishes when these invisible expectations are met. Look at the GNex development for example and take note at what the successful projects are and how they got there.
I understand that DSB wasn't well appreciated. But the community opinion doesn't get better if he leaves in this way, I would argue that he broke a lot of trust that the community had in him. He could have still taken a break, but there are much more elegant ways to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
solutions anyone?
dsb, jcase I have to side with you guys entirely. I love your work and I appreciate it completely. I am grateful for you guys, were it not for you guys and other people like you I would not get to 'OCD' on my droid all hours of the night like I do. I have learned much. I am a machinist in a shipyard, I can understand fine tuning and perfection in your work.
Unfortunately most of today's societal behaviors even in grown adults are dysfunctional at best. I have been on the internet since it's inception to the public eye and all I can say is that arguing and bickering that happens on the internet is absolutely ridiculous. I feel bad for you guys and embarrassed for the "others."
I have to agree with what works though. My daughter, when she was young would throw a temper tantrum and slam her bedroom door, so I removed the door.
orangechoochoo said:
Sigh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
orangechoochoo said:
It's early in the morning but after reading these threads that big bottle of Grey Goose is calling.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its almost night here, and Jack Daniels is calling me, all after reading all that posts and some chating on IRC... Never ever see such outcome because of some not polite posts. I have degree in International Relations and first thing i 've learned - don't say what you think, say what you need to say and SMILE )))) We all just people. I got my family. Wife, kids... But i spend time here not only because of kernels, ROMs and all that stuff. But because of great community. It looks like that 1 person can spoil all that great atmosphere.... :silly:
jcase said:
You keep saying signed social contract. It is non-sense man. What you mean is expectations from non involved individuals.
Most developers get jack for donations, only people who get tons are either A) the attention begging people who release 100000 roms for 1000 devices that are nothing special, or B) ones who release something special, and then the donation spree is short and sweet. We don't do it for donations. DSB is not making much from donations on this device, he does it strictly for fun and people are making it NOT fun for him.
I fell into B) with the DNA. I will say I made ~$800 from donations on the DNA unlock, it is not the rule but an exception. I bought two used phones really cheap to develop on ($200 and $140, gave the $200 one away to another developer for free after I was done. $140 one I will give away as well at some point.), pizza dinner for my kids ($35, my personal reward), sent some for another developer (DSB, for his work and risks) and donated the rest to various charities. This is NOT A normal amount of donations. Don't fool yourself thinking most developers are making an income of any kind doing this.
GNex community flourished due to paid support from Google (AOSP), and open documentation. Two things we did not have.
*PS*
If you haven't been in our shoes, you shouldn't pretend to know, and you shouldn't complain about us.
Click to expand...
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Never said you make a living off the income generated from donations. I know it is mostly small, but the funds do help most people. It is also nice to know that you mean something to a few individuals.
Also, I work at a legal software company as a QA Analyst officially, but I do mostly QA Engineering work for no recognition, no additional pay, and the occasional bit of harassment when someone doesn't understand my methods. I really DO get the environment.
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
th3raid0r said:
The only thing I am complaining about is devs leaving on such bad terms without a way for the community to recover, that's it.
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What makes you think anybody owes "the community" a way to recover?
D
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