Hi all.
My S2 is completely Dead after a flash. i tryied also with the riff of a friend but no results this is the log:
Open serial port...OK
Connecting to the RIFF Box...OK
Firmware Version: 1.34, JTAG Manager Version: 1.48
Selected Resurrector: [Samsung I9100 V1.0.4724.60074]
Connecting to the dead body...OK
Detected dead body ID: 0x4BA00477 - CORRECT!
Set I/O Voltage reads as 2.79V, TCK Frequency is 3 MHz
Resurrection sequence started.
Establish communication with the phone...OK
Initializing internal hardware configuration...OK
Uploading resurrector data into memory...OK
Starting communication with resurrector...OK
Detected an Initialized FLASH1 Chip, ID: 0x0015/0x0100 (VYL00M, 0x0003AB400000 Bytes = 14.68 GB)
Detected an Initialized FLASH2 Chip, ID: 0x0015/0x0100 (VYL00M, 0x000000080000 Bytes = 0.50 MB)
Selected Resurrection Data for the eMMC Chip with Capacity = 14,68GB
Flashing the dead body...
WARNING: Programming Error (0x25) at 0x000000028000 is handled as Cut Excess.
WARNING: Programming Error (0x25) at 0x00000002C000 is handled as Cut Excess.
WARNING: Programming Error (0x25) at 0x000000030000 is handled as Cut Excess.
WARNING: Programming Error (0x25) at 0x000000034000 is handled as Cut Excess.
WARNING: Programming Error (0x25) at 0x000000038000 is handled as Cut Excess.
WARNING: Programming Error (0x25) at 0x00000003C000 is handled as Cut Excess.
ERROR: Forced to Terminate. Terminated at 0x000001800000
someone can suggest a solution for to fix it?
Do you have any experience in jtaggin?
Sent from the little guy
yes i have it, how i can fix it? what i have to do?
If you have to ask, don't try it. Take it someone who knows what they're doing. One slight misplacement of the soldering iron & you end up with a hunk of plastic worth $0.20
i jtagged lots of devices but never a S2, i don't care to trow it into the garbage after... because it is out of warranty and i cannot use it anymore.
Can u please help me?
As i told u i have the riff and i tryied the resurrection but the log u saw says that i cannot recover it with the riff.
Replace motherboard. Either service centre, or get one from a 'donor' phone with a broken screen or whatever (search eBay or Google).
MistahBungle said:
If you have to ask, don't try it. Take it someone who knows what they're doing. One slight misplacement of the soldering iron & you end up with a hunk of plastic worth $0.20
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"If you have to ask, don't try it. Take it someone who knows what they're doing. One slight misplacement of the soldering iron & you end up with a hunk of plastic worth $0.20 "
what u were meaning? didn't u readed that i used the riff?
replace the mobo is a easy solution... it is the solution of the noob, i'm try to find a real solution
what do u suggest?
He means jtagging is not an easy toy to play with.
And for whar i've seen there are a lot of dead body messages in that log you posted.
Also when the mobo is fried, it's fried.
Sent from the little guy
gastonw said:
He means jtagging is not an easy toy to play with.
And for whar i've seen there are a lot of dead body messages in that log you posted.
Also when the mobo is fried, it's fried.
Sent from the little guy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok but what do u think about an XOM mod making the S2 boot from the SD Card?
Take it someone who knows what they're doing.
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hufqnjhu said:
Take it someone who knows what they're doing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i exactly know what i'm doing!
please if you don't have nothing real and useful to suggest don't reply! I need real clues not noobs reply!
i'm trying to find a solution useful for all the people that have a serious problem with the S2
As far as I know 99% of the s2 users got no idea about jtagging.
This might not be the right place to solve your jtag questions.
Sent from the little guy
PdorITA said:
replace the mobo is a easy solution... it is the solution of the noob, i'm try to find a real solution
what do u suggest?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sometimes its the only solution.Tell YOUR CUSTOMER to pay for a new mb and get an AUTHORISED SAMSUMG REPAIR CENTRE to do the job.....rather than a mickey mouse outfit.
after 2 days of work i resurrect my S2 without help, simply cutted the first 2 gb with th jtag
PdorITA said:
after 2 days of work i resurrect my S2 without help, simply cutted the first 2 gb with th jtag
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how you get your s2 alive ? i have the same problem
celica7 said:
how you get your s2 alive ? i have the same problem
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As do I. Your diagnostics and repair process would be helpful.
Thanks in advance!
PdorITA said:
after 2 days of work i resurrect my S2 without help, simply cutted the first 2 gb with th jtag
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With this I think he means that he repartitioned the nand memory after removing 2gb of memory starting from the first memory block. Basically in the partition table that 2gb will be kept as unused space.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda app-developers app
king_below_my_lord said:
With this I think he means that he repartitioned the nand memory after removing 2gb of memory starting from the first memory block. Basically in the partition table that 2gb will be kept as unused space.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I get that and want to do that also, however the HOW is what im asking.
I have tried flashing another PIT file that someone had made that starts at 176MB, however I want to start at 0MB.
Anyone can help on the creation or where I can find a PIT that will do this for me?
Related
according to wiki of xda developers:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=DeadBoot&version=7
we can repair BL of 6828 with JTAG tools
accoring to the web site, where could i find "TCK" "TMS" "TDI" "TDO" from the back of the ppc?
thanks so much, and where could I find the JTAG tools including the cable? thx
ilovemeow said:
according to wiki of xda developers:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=DeadBoot&version=7
we can repair BL of 6828 with JTAG tools
accoring to the web site, where could i find "TCK" "TMS" "TDI" "TDO" from the back of the ppc?
thanks so much, and where could I find the JTAG tools including the cable? thx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have made the JTAG tools by myself.
you can find the JTAG point from PPC inside.
tangjunhu said:
I have made the JTAG tools by myself.
you can find the JTAG point from PPC inside.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thx for reply,
so is it possible to teach me to make one by myself?
and for JTAG point, do i need to open the case?(coz 6828 doesn't like the image below, 6828 just got 3 point at that area
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ilovemeow said:
thx for reply,
so is it possible to teach me to make one by myself?
and for JTAG point, do i need to open the case?(coz 6828 doesn't like the image below, 6828 just got 3 point at that area
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, like atom, 6828 doesn't have outside connector for JTAG,you have open the case first.
The all four point are inside near the camera.
Opening the case is not difficult, I think all already mention on WIKI,
you just need T5, #0 phillips and mini (+) screw driver
Cheers,
Benz
irada said:
Unfortunately, like atom, 6828 doesn't have outside connector for JTAG,you have open the case first.
The all four point are inside near the camera.
Opening the case is not difficult, I think all already mention on WIKI,
you just need T5, #0 phillips and mini (+) screw driver
Cheers,
Benz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thankyou , i've just bought all the tools except the resistor (coz just ran out)
is it possible to do it without resistor??
ilovemeow said:
thankyou , i've just bought all the tools except the resistor (coz just ran out)
is it possible to do it without resistor??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is not recommended to run without resistor.
This resistor is important to limit voltage and current between PC and your PDA.
Since the voltage is bit different between parallel port (~2.4V) and your PDA (~3.7V), this potentially make your PC parallel port or even your PC motherboard spoil. So better play safe my friend, an fact these resistors is very cheap
Cheers,
Benz
irada said:
It is not recommended to run without resistor.
This resistor is important to limit voltage and current between PC and your PDA.
Since the voltage is bit different between parallel port (~2.4V) and your PDA (~3.7V), this potentially make your PC parallel port or even your PC motherboard spoil. So better play safe my friend, an fact these resistors is very cheap
Cheers,
Benz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks mate~
just bought everything and make JTAG tomorrow, but actually i got the wrong size kb hex screw driver lol\
hv to buy one more tomorrow before flash it thx for helping~
ilovemeow said:
according to wiki of xda developers:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=DeadBoot&version=7
we can repair BL of 6828 with JTAG tools
accoring to the web site, where could i find "TCK" "TMS" "TDI" "TDO" from the back of the ppc?
thanks so much, and where could I find the JTAG tools including the cable? thx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have HP 6828 RW - but there no any "TCK" "TMS" "TDI" "TDO" - I attach 2 pictures - PLEASE HELP ME - the device is tottaly brick.
Hey guys
has anyone tried this method?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1123429
cheers
Hold down volume up and power but window not found apn device. This way not for atrix.
bricked atrix
I will give this a shot, although I am coming up with error windows not even seeing the device as being plugged in.
Windows WILL see it while in SDK/fastboot mode?
trying
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This does not work for a "bricked" Atrix. If the Atrix is "bricked" then USB will not recognize it. That has been my conundrum since the beginning. My Atrix is bricked because I tried to go back to Froyo from Gingerbread. Apparently there is no recovering from that.
what do I do?=(
Hey guys I just bricked my phone,
I get the error,
cant read 0x1000
going to nvflash mode
battery is to low to flash
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought my phone online and I'm using in Australia, took to phone service and they said they can't help as it's from overseas!
what do I do?
wait for a way to unbrick?
send to motorola "US"?
cheers
That looks like a hard brick! Anyone please correct me if I am wrong, but there is no way of fixing that yourself. Sending to moto us is your best option if you want it fixed
(There is some chatter about a factory cable, but I would suggest a more experienced persion to also give their opinion before you do anything)
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
What you don't do is create another thread basically asking the same thing in another forum. Merging this thread with the one in Q/A. I feel sorry for your brick, so no infraction given, as I understand one can get desperate when dealing with a hard brick, however, it is what it is and nothing can get done....
Thanks guys, I did hard rest but the phone not showing on windows pc.
maybe the factory cable be an option but I heard we need to have sbf files!?
and also, I'm still under warranty can I ship the phone from Aus to US to get it fixed? how??
Thanks again
Hi Matthew
Seeing u as a same local. Have u think of going up to 2.3.4?
Maybe by flashing using sbf files? Then....
Cos I'm thinking of getting a atrix.
Bored by the gs2.
i can get to the nvflash recovery mode tho, but what that can do?
trinityb4 said:
Hi Matthew
Seeing u as a same local. Have u think of going up to 2.3.4?
Maybe by flashing using sbf files? Then....
Cos I'm thinking of getting a atrix.
Bored by the gs2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Replied you here, lets not clog up this thread
bricked-atrix said:
i can get to the nvflash recovery mode tho, but what that can do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll need a factory cable to flash, however, the files to flash have not been made available so it's not very helpful now
matthew5025 said:
You'll need a factory cable to flash, however, the files to flash have not been made available so it's not very helpful now
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I need to wait?
how about this :
briefmobile.com/motorola-atrix-4g-system-boot-file-sbf-leaked
Nah. sbf files are for RSD, nvflash (nVidia flash) require a different file and app to flash
argh...
So we just have to wait....
I've heard about some other hardwares that can be plugged into the bricked device and make it hard reset/factory reset?any ideas?
I have the same problem here... :S
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
Sucks, I will take to private phone repair shop tomorrow and let u know if they manage to fix it.
bricked-atrix said:
Sucks, I will take to private phone repair shop tomorrow and let u know if they manage to fix it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Replace only boad
board?
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
it seems that there's no soluction for the hard brick now.. my Atrix is boot loop, RSD cannot detect the Phone
i have 2 galaxy s3 i9300 . my first i9300 has a fake imei and my second just the right imei
what if i copy my second i9300 efs folder and then put it on my first i9300 will it fix the no service issue
and sorry for bad english
Sounds like you have at least one stolen phone. Good luck getting help with that.
i installed omega v14 and it change my imei i forget to back it up i didn't stole it
and the phone with changed imei i buy it at t-mobile netherlands shop
And the other phone?
Regardless, you won't find much help trying to spoof an IMEI.
to phone with the original imei i buy at typhone.nl with vodafone contract if u dont believe just dont i want to fix the no service issue
No you cannot transplant IMEI numbers since they are encrypted with (amongst others) the device/CPU ID which is unique and unchangeable for all devices. It would be illegal anyway, additionally since you will not be able to use both phones at the same time pointless.
Have it repaired by Samsung (depending on the location and serice center it should cost you some 60-ish $.
Then, wehn you get it back, do the damn EFS backup so you wont have that same issue again.
okay thanks i have one last question what do i say if samsung ask whats wrong with this phone
Hi, I think your problem is generic IMEI, you can recover your original IMEI by flashing it with stock ROM. Or try to find a repairing shop which have SPT box or Octopus box.
shaheerali said:
Hi, I think your problem is generic IMEI, you can recover your original IMEI by flashing it with stock ROM. Or try to find a repairing shop which have SPT box or Octopus box.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the problem is i live in the netherlands and a lot of people in a shop doesn't know much about android
lobird said:
the problem is i live in the netherlands and a lot of people in a shop doesn't know much about android
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
flash it back to a stock Rom with Odin. Since you are on xda you should know how to do this with ease. Use the search button.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using xda app-developers app
lobird said:
the problem is i live in the netherlands and a lot of people in a shop doesn't know much about android
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are so many posts in this forum to recover corrupted IMEI. One simple method is try to flash it with original stock ROM or in efs folder, rename the 'nvdata.bin.bak' file to 'nvdata.bin' and replace the old one.
First go through the original posts and then try the above methods...
thanks i already trying instal stock rom but no luck
here u can see my screen shot of the efs folder .
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Um... I think the OP has some explaining to do - since late August s/he has been posting asking for help to fix IMEI in a number of threads - in fact that has been the ONLY topic/question for all the posts. Previously s/he was in Thailand and now it is 'live in Netherlands' - also one phone has a fake IMEI and the other doesn't yet both have been bought from vendors. One has to wonder why s/he wouldn't simply go back to the vendor and get the stuffed phone repaired? Apparently it IS working, (i.e. not hard-bricked) so it would seem all that is needed is to pay a service fee and 'Voila!' working S3.
Logically this leads to a thought about the legitimacy of the 2nd (and maybe both) phone(s) - 3 weeks of trying many threads to get someone to provide a new IMEI seems a little excessive.
Agree this and the multiple posts is getting very suspicious . Plus not the only post asking to borrow somebody's EFS folder .
jje
yup
Closed, you have already opened a thread on this, more than once, send it to samsung and they will fix it, seems you are beyond repaid at this point.
Hi
A friend of mine owns a Galaxy S3 and is having the following problem
The phone seems not booting, and a white screen with black lines appear.
We've thought about getting a new screen housing complete, with digitizer, screen, etc. but I'm not sure if this will solve the problem.
How could I do some testing so I can know which is the problem and how could I do a complete wipe to the phone as it is now, if possible?
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Thanks
seems like SDS
Service centre as it may not be a problem you can solve .
Wipe phone see multiple identical posts / ADB how to use .
hav the same problem here
is lcd problem just change another one try friend
abumaha said:
hav the same problem here
is lcd problem just change another one try friend
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yea, but before buying the lcd+digitizer housing, I wanna be sure that buying it will solve this problem.
Get another friends lcd test it
My friend could get into download mode. He tried to flash another roms, but the 1st time he got an error, and the second try he waited more than 20min without any progress...
Is there any way to make a complete wipe from download mode?
kabeza said:
My friend could get into download mode. He tried to flash another roms, but the 1st time he got an error, and the second try he waited more than 20min without any progress...
Is there any way to make a complete wipe from download mode?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. That white screen is the sign of the complete eMMC failure a.k.a SDS. Nothing you can do about it but have it repaired by Samsung either by warranty of by paying for the service.
SignetSphere said:
No. That white screen is the sign of the complete eMMC failure a.k.a SDS. Nothing you can do about it but have it repaired by Samsung either by warranty of by paying for the service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
let's say i bought it from ebay ( no garantie" , my counter is 0 , i can still go to Samsung center and get it repaired for not much money ???
sinoukevin said:
let's say i bought it from ebay ( no garantie" , my counter is 0 , i can still go to Samsung center and get it repaired for not much money ???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U can in warranty no worry bro
if its no water damage just send to repair Center samsung no need to pay only shipping
abumaha said:
U can in warranty no worry bro
if its no water damage just send to repair Center samsung no need to pay only shipping
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thx for the quick replay ^^ , that's wht i'm gonna try to do , thx again
sinoukevin said:
let's say i bought it from ebay ( no garantie" , my counter is 0 , i can still go to Samsung center and get it repaired for not much money ???
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simply that depends upon Samsung's policy to second users and proof of ownership .
As far as i am aware they do not accept second users as a warranty claim . But you are going to have to try first before paying for a repair .
hi
it's EMMC break.. u must change EMMC this is the only way to back to life
kabeza said:
yea, but before buying the lcd+digitizer housing, I wanna be sure that buying it will solve this problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
use odin tou repair framwork this is the problem for u display
It is not display problem but symptom of corrupted internal nand, eMMc as dackota said. Bootloader is probably still available but Partitions Information Table is damaged and switched to read only mode. You will not be able to flash anything.
You need to replace your motherboard or at least reflow new eMMc chip. Sorry it is so called hard brick or sudden death.
You can check display by entering download mode. It is displayed correctly. Fuzzy screen while booting shows because bootloader can't read data to init system.
You can try to flash only param.bin, same .pit file or anything else via Odin or Heimdall but it will end at Setup Connection and write fail errors. Sorry bro. 90 percent of nand flash chips in s3 are physically faulty. Samsung replaces those motherboard under warranty, but if it's void or outdated you need to pay for repair.
In some countries it is too expensive and worthless. In Poland, where I live, it is cost of 50-70 bucks. New i9300 or i9305 you can have for circa about 200$.
You can check eBay or similar to your country person-to-person transaction platform to search s3 with broken screen only but fully operational motherboard and replace it yourself. It is very easy. Sometimes it is cheaper than repair the old one.
____________________________________________
P3110 / I9300 / I9100 / NEXUS 5 / iPAD2
Same issue as above ' I've now upgraded to a S5 ' and have a rather expensive paperweight sitting on my desk ' Thanks to those who posted above for posting about said issue saved me posting myself ' I will see what the damage is on a new motherboard an if it's viable to have it repaired ' Thank you once again .
Today i'm try flash firmware my fire tv gen 2 running OS version 5.2.6.1 (it can't root) to OS version 5.2.1.0
, now i can downgrade and root it. (i try all method to downgrade and root on internet but not work)
Instruction you can find in file here :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zZDNqFbZ8dqngi4GRX_weaTgApJr_YUr
It's real not fake!
Hope this help.
Sorry my English!
if you need my help. you can contact me on facebook ?
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Jackie393 said:
Today i'm try flash firmware my fire tv gen 2 running OS version 5.2.6.1 (it can't root) to OS version 5.2.1.0
, now i can downgrade and root it. (i try all method to downgrade and root on internet but not work)
Instruction you can find in file here :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zZDNqFbZ8dqngi4GRX_weaTgApJr_YUr
It's real not fake!
Hope this help.
Sorry my English!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Would this work on a 2nd gen box that won't boot past the white Amazon screen? Does the zip file have all of the partitions needed to repair a non bootable box?
BRICK0044 said:
Would this work on a 2nd gen box that won't boot past the white Amazon screen? Does the zip file have all of the partitions needed to repair a non bootable box?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if your device has been brick. i can upload share all partition for you. you need flash them, your device will work. my file zip only have partition to downgrade to OS version 5.2.1.0
Jackie393 said:
if your device has been brick. i can upload share all partition for you. you need flash them, your device will work. my file zip only have partition to downgrade to OS version 5.2.1.0
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you I would appreciate that.
BRICK0044 said:
Thank you I would appreciate that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes. i will upload and send for you in tomorrow because my country in the night (10PM)
BRICK0044 said:
Thank you I would appreciate that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i share all partition i dump,you need flash all partition to eMMC
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ux1NbCi3gUHjQQtbiZeB9FQokR3YHxn/view?usp=drivesdk
Jackie393 said:
i share all partition i dump,you need flash all partition to eMMC
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-ux1NbCi3gUHjQQtbiZeB9FQokR3YHxn/view?usp=drivesdk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you! I see you remove chip with heat gun, how are you reinstalling the chip? I can solder but the solder joints aren't accessible from the bottom. Are you using the heat gun for reinstalling?
BRICK0044 said:
Thank you! I see you remove chip with heat gun, how are you reinstalling the chip? I can solder but the solder joints aren't accessible from the bottom. Are you using the heat gun for reinstalling?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes. use heat gun for sold eMMC to board. i will make some video instruction soon. please don't try if you don't have heat gun
Jackie393 said:
yes. use heat gun for sold eMMC to board. i will make some video instruction soon. please don't try if you don't have heat gun
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you will wait for video.
BRICK0044 said:
Thank you will wait for video.
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you need reball for eMMC then sold it to board. my skill not best
BRICK0044 said:
Thank you will wait for video.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you need reball for eMMC then sold it to board. my skill not best
Think I might try this in the next coming weeks since there is no other guide out there. Just need a stencil and emmc adapter. @Jackie393 I might have a lot of questions for you once I get started as I’m not very proficient with Linux. Also, could you not find any points on the PCB so we don’t have to lift the chip?
My skill not best and now i damage my emmc. i will order new emmc and make tutorial video soon
Jackie393 said:
My skill not best and now i damage my emmc. i will order new emmc and make tutorial video soon
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hate to bump and old thread, but did you still have to have those videos up! I am looking for a guide on how to do it!
After an Amazon update I also had a boot problem with my Amazon Fire TV2 and only saw the white logo and then the red debug note
I tried to repair the Fire TV2 according to instructions from Jackie393...
eMMC Flash desoldered, a new Flash of the same type ordered from China and programmed with its files via Linux. After soldering the eMMC Flash on the Amazon Fire TV2 mainboard , did not boot anymore.
The white LED remained off...
After I flashed his UserDat directory on my original eMMC, my directory was destroyed by the update, I think I soldered this original eMMC back on the mainboard of Amazon TV.... the mainboard immediately started with the white LED and board booted again completely......
Now my question? Are there any hidden files on the eMMC that the bootloader asks for and which of course are not present on a completely new eMMC?
Sorry for all. i order new eMMC from Aliexpress, i try flash all parttition to new eMMC but My Fire TV not boot, may be some partition hide with original eMMC or new eMMC need patch CID to compatible with CPU.
Sorry my english. i'm not a phone repaier, and developer. sorry all
Hello, Jackie393... You don't have to apologize ... if it were that easy, everybody could do it Does anyone have an idea why this part doesn't boot ?
did you successfully reflash and downgrade.
i know in 2021 and beyond , most likely the only way to do this now is using the unbrick , and
rom flash method. this is because with each updated firmware ,
amazon patches more and more to stop the holes that allow root .
unlike years ago the simple one click rooting solution simply wont work anymore.
you would need to search for unbricking fire tv 2 sloane ,
the technique requires you to learn how to short the fire tv 2 motherboard pins at the same time
you run the specific linux command line prompts.
yes its tricky , and requires you to learn the feel of how to do it ,
but once you get it , youll never have a bricked amazon device again , nor are you
at the mercy of amazon anymore.
i highly recommend the unbrick/ rom flash method ,
but be prepared to make mistakes and get frustrated until you get it.
it definately takes time and a learning curve.
c.f.