[Q] why can't root access be something an OEM or even google allows from the off? - Sony Xperia Z Ultra

from a end users POV i mean?
why can't i get a new phone, install supersu from the play store, go to dev options or security, and enable root and point to supersu to handle it?
no security holes needed to get root and far less hassle for us end users to get to do what we want with our phones
is it just an attitude thing by google and the OEMs or a more technical thing?

well...what I can see is that the general public don't need or care for these functions. And they are quite good security locks. The ones who don't know what these functions are will not attempt to unlock the bootloader etc etc.
If for example these functions are visible in the settings menu and someone who just got their device scrolling the menus and finds this interesting button.
hmm..It says "root"? Beneath is another button says "unlock bootloader".
WOOW! Lets press the buttons and see what happens!!! :laugh::laugh:
And somehow the user bricked the device because the person didn't have any knowledge of what was going on.
There is probably more to it like warranty questions.

but it wouldn't be visible - like on this phone you had to know where to go to enable dev options so an average user wouldn't see it at all.
plus not all devices have locked bootloaders either. this is my 1st since the HTC desire.

I'll just quote "Kay" from Man In Black;
"A person is smart. People are dumb"
People in general are so soo stupid and they would tap something and three seconds later SystemUI would've been gone. Not likely of course, but you know that guy who's everywhere and manages to do some pretty stupid stuff with everything he touches. With that said, i think every single individual at XDA would love to have a pre-rooted device, or simply have (like you say) a toggle in the developer settings or something, but we all know how stupid people are, so i understand why it's not an option.
I would rather have a simple procedure like the Nexus' have where you have to know what you're about to do, and you can do it. If you do that, you probably know what root means, and you won't try to delete the system folder.

LordManhattan said:
I'll just quote "Kay" from Man In Black;
"A person is smart. People are dumb"
People in general are so soo stupid and they would tap something and three seconds later SystemUI would've been gone. Not likely of course, but you know that guy who's everywhere and manages to do some pretty stupid stuff with everything he touches. With that said, i think every single individual at XDA would love to have a pre-rooted device, or simply have (like you say) a toggle in the developer settings or something, but we all know how stupid people are, so i understand why it's not an option.
I would rather have a simple procedure like the Nexus' have where you have to know what you're about to do, and you can do it. If you do that, you probably know what root means, and you won't try to delete the system folder.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree with the OP though. Because even Linux itself comes with su. Windows comes with Administrator mode. So it shouldn't be a problem to provide root into the system even though majority of people doesn't know what are they doing. If something goes wrong, just recommend them to flash again (in Windows term, format and fresh install) even then google already provides contact backup so it shouldn't take a long time. Unlocking the bootloader on the other hand..
Sent from my C6802 using xda app-developers app

Sure, but does your mom or sister use Linux, or even a terminal/CMD? No they do not. Linux is a "niche" OS, and the people that uses it knows what it is and what it does. Geeks. Being a Windows admin is not nearly as dangerous as having root in Android or Linux. You can destroy the whole system by deleting one file. And flashing and formatting is something few people do. There's a reason why I hate it when friends and family start messing around with their devices, because I know that I'll have to either take a look at the damn thing or reformat it next week.
People are morons when it comes to technology. WE are a special group of people that spend A LOT of time with these things, so it's natural that we want it all. Regular people on the other hand want to check Facebook and use Spotify. Throw the whole kitchen sink into the OS and people will get confused and get an iPhone, or simply stop using it for what it is or could be. Remember that we are the minority here. Android is a mainstream OS that is meant for regular people and should be simple to use, but advanced under the hood (so people like us can play with it).
If you take a closer look at KitKat, you'll notice that Google have made some tiny changes, like the arrow on the lock screen that tells you that if you drag the arrow up, you'll open Google Now. Also notice the camera icon on the lock screen. Tap it and it'll move a little - like a hint for people that you can slide it to open the camera. Google understands that people need guidance and not hidden shortcuts and more gestures. We may know about all the features and easter eggs, but that's because we're actively looking for them. People in general are not.
My point is, people don't care. WE, the geeks are the minority and not the main group of people OEM's are thinking about when they make devices. We, the geeks already have devices that are targeted at us and it's called "Nexus".
/rant
Sent from my C6833 using Tapatalk

LordManhattan said:
Sure, but does your mom or sister use Linux, or even a terminal/CMD? No they do not. Linux is a "niche" OS, and the people that uses it knows what it is and what it does. Geeks. Being a Windows admin is not nearly as dangerous as having root in Android or Linux. You can destroy the whole system by deleting one file. And flashing and formatting is something few people do. There's a reason why I hate it when friends and family start messing around with their devices, because I know that I'll have to either take a look at the damn thing or reformat it next week.
People are morons when it comes to technology. WE are a special group of people that spend A LOT of time with these things, so it's natural that we want it all. Regular people on the other hand want to check Facebook and use Spotify. Throw the whole kitchen sink into the OS and people will get confused and get an iPhone, or simply stop using it for what it is or could be. Remember that we are the minority here. Android is a mainstream OS that is meant for regular people and should be simple to use, but advanced under the hood (so people like us can play with it).
If you take a closer look at KitKat, you'll notice that Google have made some tiny changes, like the arrow on the lock screen that tells you that if you drag the arrow up, you'll open Google Now. Also notice the camera icon on the lock screen. Tap it and it'll move a little - like a hint for people that you can slide it to open the camera. Google understands that people need guidance and not hidden shortcuts and more gestures. We may know about all the features and easter eggs, but that's because we're actively looking for them. People in general are not.
My point is, people don't care. WE, the geeks are the minority and not the main group of people OEM's are thinking about when they make devices. We, the geeks already have devices that are targeted at us and it's called "Nexus".
/rant
Sent from my C6833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But if people really don't care, why Microsoft and Linux devs give such Administrator access to their 'Home edition' software? We bought the device and the ROM so why such restriction compared to a casual desktop solution? Following Google's logic to make it easy user friendly as it is, just put it in hidden place like developer option and boom problem solved. No casual user would ever know about tapping the Android build number continuously. Plus with a revised policy for warranty will be nice, for example, it will be void if you ever unlocked the bootloader of the device, because imho, that is the lifeline nowadays to guarantee that your device is still recoverable with some flashing. Casual super user activity shouldn't be closed completely i'd say (i.e Titanium backup anyone?).

Hmmm, someone corrects me if I'm wrong, but isn't rooting on Android or Linux more risky if the user has no idea what they're doing?
Windows allows users to do some stuff but the worst thing you could do is mess it up so bad you have to do a clean install. There might not be a link from changing something in windows to completely screw up BIOS.
Now for rooting on Android, the average Joe hears about it, cool, let's press some buttons. Then some people mentions about kernels and radios, cool, let's flash some. Bam, phone gone. As some other have said, people will never cease to amaze you with their stupidity. So in Google and OEM's mind, it's best to make it as inaccessible as possible to avoid having some dumbass sue them for including something "potentially risky" in their devices.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using xda app-developers app

Yo_2T said:
Hmmm, someone corrects me if I'm wrong, but isn't rooting on Android or Linux more risky if the user has no idea what they're doing?
Windows allows users to do some stuff but the worst thing you could do is mess it up so bad you have to do a clean install. There might not be a link from changing something in windows to completely screw up BIOS.
Now for rooting on Android, the average Joe hears about it, cool, let's press some buttons. Then some people mentions about kernels and radios, cool, let's flash some. Bam, phone gone. As some other have said, people will never cease to amaze you with their stupidity. So in Google and OEM's mind, it's best to make it as inaccessible as possible to avoid having some dumbass sue them for including something "potentially risky" in their devices.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it is more risky but as i said in my post, warranty void IF the bootloader (ie the BIOS in desktop terms) is unlocked because even if you mess up the phone, there's always PC Companion fresh install if you still have locked bootloader, just like Windows fresh install, so therefore, Root/Admin priv should not be cut off completely from the system.

LordManhattan said:
Sure, but does your mom or sister use Linux, or even a terminal/CMD? No they do not. Linux is a "niche" OS, and the people that uses it knows what it is and what it does. Geeks. Being a Windows admin is not nearly as dangerous as having root in Android or Linux. You can destroy the whole system by deleting one file. And flashing and formatting is something few people do. There's a reason why I hate it when friends and family start messing around with their devices, because I know that I'll have to either take a look at the damn thing or reformat it next week.
People are morons when it comes to technology. WE are a special group of people that spend A LOT of time with these things, so it's natural that we want it all. Regular people on the other hand want to check Facebook and use Spotify. Throw the whole kitchen sink into the OS and people will get confused and get an iPhone, or simply stop using it for what it is or could be. Remember that we are the minority here. Android is a mainstream OS that is meant for regular people and should be simple to use, but advanced under the hood (so people like us can play with it).
If you take a closer look at KitKat, you'll notice that Google have made some tiny changes, like the arrow on the lock screen that tells you that if you drag the arrow up, you'll open Google Now. Also notice the camera icon on the lock screen. Tap it and it'll move a little - like a hint for people that you can slide it to open the camera. Google understands that people need guidance and not hidden shortcuts and more gestures. We may know about all the features and easter eggs, but that's because we're actively looking for them. People in general are not.
My point is, people don't care. WE, the geeks are the minority and not the main group of people OEM's are thinking about when they make devices. We, the geeks already have devices that are targeted at us and it's called "Nexus".
/rant
Sent from my C6833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
maybe but the nexus is an extremely limited device and not something i'd ever consider without google making major changes.
i don't see how something like this would mess up the average user either. i mean if you have a hidden dev options menu you have to unhide, then you have to download supersu and then enable root in dev options.
if someone does all that then they know what they're getting into and must have read some guide to get there. no different to now really.

I think kit all depends on the people who set the first stone for these mobile operating systems. They obviously didn't think of them in the same sense as computer OS, so they just do things in certain ways. And I think from the way the market has evolved, Google hasn't found a reason to incorporate such features into Android because there's no real demand for it. You know how sometimes it doesn't take companies to do certain things, but they just don't do it. (like the freaking battery percentage on Android).
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Related

Possible? True Security Protection?

Well I was just reading a thread about someone buying a Vibrant from someone who "found" it and this person was looking for a way to bypass WaveSecure.
We all know that with a little know how that it is possible with Recovery Mode.
The question I have is there a way to prevent even a Recovery Mode reflash? To absolutely stop someone from touching the ROM at all?
I know the Security Apps out right now can track you from GPS, wipe the phone remotely, etc... But can it stop someone from reflashing a ROM?
If there is a app out there like that please let me know, but if not, what would it take to create such a app.
What are YOUR thoughts??
What if this happens and then you brick for some reason need to reflash and it's locked. I would just bank on the fact that most people think that it's a "Droid" phone and don't know ****.
I was hoping for a question like that.
Either there is a security measure which at some point of using Recovery that it asks for a password or pin. Something that will allow you to access it securely and nobody else.
Yes, it is a droid, very true, but how many droids are out there now, are going to be out there, and with the new laws that allow you to unlock your device and pretty much do anything with it, more and more people are going to start playing around. Not only that, there is always somebody who knows someone, you know.
Personally myself, I would feel secure with having an implementation like this, everything else is pointless.
It's sort of like having a anti virus on your computer but not scanning for rootkits, only viruses.
The idea of that app sounds nice and all that but I seriously doubt that the average Android user would know about flashing ROMs and all that. But if it does get into the hands of somebody that does know how to do it then it can be a problem.
jzero88 said:
Yes, it is a droid, very true, but how many droids...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all these are android devices / android phones. I was mocking the people who call these phones "droid" phones.
Now on topic: All it takes to break this security is for one person to say, "I forgot my password on for the ==sUPERlOCKER== what do I do to get access?" Then all your worry is for nothing again.
What has been done can always be undone.
Sure, unlike me, I never forget my passwords. Especially for something this serious.
Second, of course something can be undo, but to what extent, after hearing your lack of concern makes me think you don't even have a lock on your phone
Again, would you rather have a password like "1234" that is easily guessed, or would you rather have something like "00LowJK54889$3%#". It's really a matter of personal security.
You sound like one of those people who would have Security Cameras, but never has the DVR on to record anything.
I'm saying your idea is bad. I have illustrated why. You have no counterpoint other than that I am 'relaxed' about my phone security.
How about this, keep your phone in your pocket or hand? 100% security.
This should be in general and not development
Sent from my Vibrant using xda app
This has been discussed a few times, you could compile your own recovery image and program in a password while at it, or you can accept that 90% of theives(or people who would find your phone) cannot get to recovery. If I found a phone then yeah I would go straight to recovery but I'm not your average user.
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
I'm saying your idea is bad. I have illustrated why. You have no counterpoint other than that I am 'relaxed' about my phone security.
How about this, keep your phone in your pocket or hand? 100% security.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First, my idea is not bad, give it time, you will see.
Second, I do not have a counterpoint because my main point is stated in the first post. Read again.
Third, I don't care if you are relaxed about your security or not. This post obviously is not for you, another negative person who stunts development if they do not see a logical use for themselves.
I wish you the best and hope that you do not need to ever use such a tool or measure. Take it easy.
This has been discussed a few times, you could compile your own recovery image and program in a password while at it, or you can accept that 90% of theives(or people who would find your phone) cannot get to recovery. If I found a phone then yeah I would go straight to recovery but I'm not your average user.
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the Vibrant forums? Haven't seen anything yet.
Also, I am not betting on a thief or someone who found the phone to be able to get to recovery, I'm worried about who these people might know. It's surprising to see how many people out here think that they are the only person in a 20 mile radius who knows how to do such mods... Maybe it's just the people I know but I know quite a few people who can easily google and find a way, easily.
I can bet that 90% of people here do not know anything except following directions, no pun intended to those who do. I definitely do not know half of what I should know, but again, is it really that hard?
Your own logic defeats what you are saying here. Don't you understand OP?
If there is a security measure, there will be a work around it? So why have more than ONE thing for the uneducated masses and stop there?
If the person who steals your phone knows someone who could get around WaveSecure, or any other security application. Then that same person can get around ANY AND ALL other types and forms of theft deterrent. If not, they will know someone, ask on forums, etc. UNTIL they gain access.
zaduma
Then why have any security on anything at all?
You my friend make no sense, good day!
jzero88 said:
Then why have any security on anything at all?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I will lay it out as simply as I can man. I do not want to argue, but you are missing why this is impossible to accomplish.
The existing security layers can be compromised by lets say... 10% of the population, seeing as most people who are thieves do not talk about it, most people dislike thieves.
So effectively 90% of people will be stopped dead in their tracks by having WaveSecure, etc.
The 10% who are not stopped however, can not be stopped by any means. None. They are the people who read these forums, have technical ability, etc.
Therefore having one layer of security means 90% of people are stopped from using your device. But it has ridiculously diminishing returns. With two layers, say stopping access to recovery, 10% are now stopped. Just boot into download mode and flash with odin. Stop download mode? First of all how? Second of all, there has to be a workaround for people who forget their passwords and stuff. And guess what, those 10% will know about that as well.
So please, address these issues and resolve them somehow, and your idea has merit. Without doing so you are wasting your time.
Also, much to your liking I will assume, I will no longer be posting in this thread due to your constant elevation of flaming.
Any security pro will tell you, if you have physical access to a computer, you can make it usable for you. The only real security you can hope for its to prevent access to your data by the thief. That's what full disk encryption and such is about. For our phones, we could achieve this much with a custom kernel perhaps, but how would you enter the password? No keyboard at that level.
The cellular providers can prevent the stolen phone from getting on their networks, and some do, but that's about as far as it goes.
Its like having a lock on your front door.. Its only going to keep out the honest people... Thats what they are made for, honest people, because dishonest people will just kick the door in.. And the good thieves can pick a dead bolt...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I'm starting to think this request/question is for the wrong crowd, truly it is...
If you build it they will hack it... Hands down... Look at the droid x, the unhackable phone, it took 5 weeks..
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I agree, never did I not. This thread wasn't to debate whether a security measure could be hacked or not, the thread was created to see what we could do to implement such a measure.
I am totally aware of that. I know that if there is a will there is a way.
PERSONALLY, that is something I wouldn't mind having. Though some of you disagree and have a right to your own opinion, that is beyond the point. I am trying to see if a) is it possible. and b) what it would take to do so, and possibly c) if anyone was interested in trying or helping out.
So feel free to express your opinion. Mine is that you can never have enough protection cuz I would never bring a knife to a gun fight. But that's just me...
BTW, those who hacked the unhackable phone I would consider being part of the .01%.
jzero88 said:
I'm starting to think this request/question is for the wrong crowd, truly it is...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you mean people that know how things work, I suppose. It's the same problem as drm. When you understand why that's not possible, you will understand this. Read up on jtag as well, you can't protect against that. 90% is about as good as it gets.

Market wont let me download

I bought icam several months ago,from market no problem,now im on 360 rom....which is still att rom.....and market says my phone is not compatible.....bull....ill be the judge of that : ) .......how do I get market to accept my phone....i know it did before.....and should now.i read about how to fix their problem....but I cant find the thread.....anyone help....thanks
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
Sorry guys.....i finally found the thread.....i had downloaded "lcd density" to change my density to 200.....i changed it back to 160,then cleared cache in applications-market,and cleared data,then went back into market and uninstalled current app the reinstalled......i forgot about density......market should let us download any app.....the icam works on 200 dpi
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
For the record, 360 is an unlocked Streak ROM, NOT an AT&T branded ROM.
You are placing your discontent in the wrong place. If the Streak isn't supported by the developer for whatever reason, ask the developer to make their apps compatible with the Streak.
It's apparently part of the 'new' google market policy, you must explicity declare what dpis your app is compatable with, they cant just state the range of dpis now.
120/160/240/320 are the only official dpis, you're a lot less likely to find apps that support anything inbetween, unless they also have them listed.
Thanks Manii.....i was wondering why that would matter
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
But Strephon,the developer did make his app compatible for ds5.....it was just me changing the dpi,but the phone is compatible......market should say "your lcd density is not supported,do you wanna download anyway" not "your phone is not compatible" dorks......like what windows pc will say if your trying to install a driver that you know is correct,but ms has not checked it,so why windows is best os period(yes im a pc guy : ) ) it will give you the option to "continue anyway" with the driver install.....common sense,as it should be......should be the same with android,ios,or any other os.......and while im on a rant,"parent" and "child" for folder stucture....google,give me a break....just call it folders and subfolders.....cause thats what they are....instead of having to be "different" in everything,than microsoft.....coming from working on pc's for 12 yrs....and then looking at all the phone forums;i can feel my IQ dropping, lol
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
It is still the developer's responsibility to list the resolutions his app supports. Therefore my earlier statement still applies.
No....its wrong for market to not let me download an app....regardless of what the dev provides to them.i bought my phone....and the app....its not googles right to try to deny me someone app.....does microsoft deny what I can download....no.....nor should any os decide what I can put on my phone....so I am right.....your being a google fan boy,just like an apple fan boy is to apple,they worship the company and never question their decisions.....think for yourself whats right,not what your told by google
Sent from my Dell Streak using XDA App
What would happen if you installed an incompatable app?
Would you:
A) Realize that it was your mistake
B) Go run and scream at the maker that their app is broken because you cant, for example, take pictures with a device with no camera
137% of the time (i researched those numbers) it's B, the only time it's EVER A is never.
Intentionally setting your device to the an unsupported dpi is not their problem. It would be like having to support devices you cant even get your app on, such as cheap android tabs that dont have market.
And every OS's app market is controlled by their makers, google is the most lax about it because of their policy.
Google: Go ahead and add whatever you want, as long as it's A) not illegal, B) no infringing, C) not malware
Apple: If we like your app, we'll let you include it, we reserve the right to change our minds all the time if we're in the mood.
Microsoft: basically apple, but prob much more consistant
Amazon: same as microsoft
Cydia: anything goes, you just have to find the right repo
Any other app store: depending on what they offer, likely similar to amazon and microsoft
They ALL still perform device checks on top of that to make sure it would even run in the first place, android has the most varied devices that need to be supported, and WP7 has the least.
Your basically asking the equivilent of why you cant install IOS5 apps on an an original iphone, even if you managed to force install it, it would never run anyway.
It's up to whoever controlls the distrubution of the app to allow/disallow the correct devices, in the case of the android market, it's in the hands of the app maker.
Also, there's a thing called an enter key dozens of periods is not the same thing.
mokokawi said:
No.
It's wrong for the Market to not let me download an App. Regardless of what the developer provides to them, I bought my phone and the App. It's not Google's right to try and deny me someone's App.
Does Microsoft deny what I can download? No.
Nor should any OS decide what I can put on my phone. So I am right. You're being a Google fan boy. Just like an Apple fan boy is to Apple; they worship the company and never question their decisions. Think for yourself what's right and not what you're told by Google.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think I'm going to bust out laughing here. This is the funniest rant I've seen in quite some time.
First of all, I'm going to echo what Manii said about an Enter key, but go one step further. I had to rewrite your entire post in order to fully understand it, because your stream of consciousness posting shows me that you are a lazy person with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. In the English language we have these things called "punctuation marks". They are used for various reasons. One of the most important of them is to determine where a sentence ends. Another use is to determine possession. A third use, and one you apparently know quite well, is to seperate thoughts from each other.
In any event, proper punctuation makes your thoughts easier to read. Using proper punctuation also shows people that you care about how you present yourself to the rest of the world. If you actually want your thoughts to be read and not extensively edited by people like myself, start using punctuation.
Secondly, the English language has another useful construct called the "capital letter". These are used to begin sentences and to highlight proper nouns and certain other constructs, such as "I". Whenever you refer to a company such as Google or Apple, or whenever you address someone, you use a capital letter. I capitalize "Market" when referring to the Android Market, since Android is inferred from the context. To not capitalize things is disgraceful, and really highlights how low the US education system has sunk.
Now, as to the substance of your post, you're *****ing because the Android Market won't let you download an App that you paid for. However, as you yourself pointed out you set a non-standard resolution on your Streak. The Market detects this and refuses to allow you to download the App. I can see where holding the Market responsible would make sense, but the reality of the matter is that the source of the problem with the App is not the Market and is not the App developer.
The source of the problem is you, for trying to use a non-standard resolution. No amount of blame shifting from yourself to the Market or insults calling me an Android fan boy is going to change that simple fact. So cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it.
I would love you to do my grammar work for Collage. How much do you charge for such a service?
Thanks for the compliment. I'm not perfect when it comes to grammar, but I make an effort to ensure my thoughts are readable. The entire point of my post is if you want someone to try and take you seriously you have to be able to present your thoughts in a coherent manner.
Mokokawi didn't present his thoughts well, and as I found out after rewriting his post so I could read it, even had he posted coherently I couldn't take him seriously. He attacked me by calling me a fan boy instead of attacking my argument. By attacking me and not my argument he proved, at least to me, that his argument was weak and could not stand up to scrutiny.
So to recap, a good post is made up of two elements. The first is that the person in question writes their words so they are readable. I understand that not everybody speaks English and has to use a translator to put their thoughts into English, but even the non-English speakers in the forum have no trouble getting their thoughts across. Posting thoughts as a "stream of consciousness" separated by ellipsis is lazy. Posting "internet shortcuts" such as "u" for "you" and "y" for "why" is lazy.
The second is that the post does not attack the poster, even where such attacks may be warranted. By that standard, my previous post was not a good one, even if dead on the mark. What I should have done was simply replied to his post and left the comments about punctuation marks and capitalization out of it, no matter how good it felt for me to say it to him.

Why won't google sell android pre-rooted?

I figure with apple it's a lost cause to begin with. I guess it's just how they want it. they want to limit the people to what they deem is good enough for iOS
but google and AOSP on the other hand...
it's an open enviroment with the source code publicly available.
why won't google allow the devices to come pre rooted?
it's like buying a windows PC, but you can't access the windows folder, or linux with no root access (no sudo)
It makes me think because of possible security breaches and possible lawsuits? but if that's the case, it would have happened with linux and windows machines that allow root access...
just got me curious...
what's the method to the madness here?
Its up to carriers and OEMs. Google has no say in the matter. On Nexus phones it is damn easy to root phones and the Nexus One practically was prerooted.
Google doesnt stop anyone from selling phones prerooted, in fact, I would assume they encourage it.
I've been wondering this for a while now actually.
I think I'd be tempted to punch the poor guy who sold me a windows computer with no admin access..
Why do we (as a culture) not get outraged we aren't suppose to have full access to our phones?
Being totally honest here.. the "you could mess something up" logic doesn't work for me..Try telling any computer user who has had to use admin access for *ANYTHING* that..
Agreed. Google really is a company for their consumers. As stated above I'd assume they'd have pre-rooted phones. Though, I wouldn't think it'd be up to the carrier, more so the manufacturer. The carrier usually has to do with their bloatware. HTC made a statement in May saying their new phones after said statment will have unlocked bootloaders (they haven't kept that by the way). Rooting is easy though, its just cracking though bootloaders that allows custom roms, now that's the issue, especially Motorola devices.
Sent from my LG-P925 using xda premium
perhaps when it's rooted, people will 'customize' it too much, causing too much warranty replacements, and the manuf doesn't wanna deal with it?
I assume they void this risk by making it so that it's hard and pita to root it, and causing void of warranty, so they aren't responsible when the phone is bricked.
but it's not like if I destroy my windows on my computer, dell will come and fix it. (they do provide the tech support though I think? I don't know)
problem is, we're a sue happy country. so... I think that has alot to do with it.
razorseal said:
perhaps when it's rooted, people will 'customize' it too much, causing too much warranty replacements, and the manuf doesn't wanna deal with it?
I assume they void this risk by making it so that it's hard and pita to root it, and causing void of warranty, so they aren't responsible when the phone is bricked.
but it's not like if I destroy my windows on my computer, dell will come and fix it. (they do provide the tech support though I think? I don't know)
problem is, we're a sue happy country. so... I think that has alot to do with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
youve pretty much nailed it. almost.
99% of PHONE users do not mod and do not need/should have access to things that can prevent their phone from working anymore.
Imagine just being some dumb-ass, who 'pocket dials' deleting system apps, or the phone.apk... or is 'deleting the garbage' in download folder.. BUT its NOT the download folder... oops!
but you are no normal dumb-ass, you own a multi-million dollar company, and you cant receive or make time sensitive calls!!!?? because you accidentally deleted important stuff in your pocket... that IS a law suit.
remember this is a PHONE, not a computer.
tabets you have a case...
There should be a option when you first boot (or reflash) more or less like this:
Do you want to root your phone?
Root is used by advanced users and developers. If you don't know what this means, press 'No'.
Yes////// No
Sent using Mini CM7 Pro by Paul
.
Thread moved to Q&A due to it being a question. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
The biggest issue lies with the carriers and manufacturers, not Google. The carriers don't want you to use wireless tethering without paying them for it. The manufacturers don't want to replace phones broken by some idiot that doesn't know how to read.
I agree that most users don't know what root is and have no business modifying system files. However, it would be nice if all phones were as easy to root as Nexus phones. Just OEM unlock and be done with it. Unfortunately folks would catch on and tethering would skyrocket. The carriers can't have that.
There's also the issue of malicious apps. On a non-rooted phone, an app can only access so much data and its permissions are laid out in plain text upon install. On a rooted phone, an app without any permissions can access the same data. People are used to always accepting when Windows prompts them for admin access, and they'd do the same when prompted for Superuser access. I wish all of the root methods released, specifically the automated ones, required you to pass a test before rooting. There are too many people rooting their phones and then getting into a jam because they were too lazy to read.
I feel like the number of uneducated root users would drop if carriers and manufacturers would do a few things. If carriers made tethering plans affordable, people wouldn't root just for that reason. If manufacturers made bloatware uninstallable - not stuff like phone.apk or systemui.apk, but the apps that can be downloaded from the market or aren't necessary for the phone to run - then less people would root for that reason. You'd also get less obnoxious reviews on the market saying "omfg like I can't uninstall it you suck I'd give it zero stars if I could" that lower the rating on well developed apps.
Okay, end rant.
Supersonic Evo 4G | MIUI | Tapatalk
plainjane said:
There's also the issue of malicious apps. On a non-rooted phone, an app can only access so much data and its permissions are laid out in plain text upon install. On a rooted phone, an app without any permissions can access the same data. People are used to always accepting when Windows prompts them for admin access, and they'd do the same when prompted for Superuser access.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, with a rooted phone you'll definitely have a less secure system if you don't know how to use it correctly. This point alone makes it not worth to give root access to normal users imo. I'm an app developer and I can say that I manage fine without a rooted phone and I have absolutely no need to root either, so far...
I can add that I don't live in US either so I don't know what kind of limitations you are bypassing there by rooting but that WiFi tethering is no problem for me without root access.

[Q] App "Superuser" containing malware? Possible?

Hello to everyone!
Maybe it's a stupid, noob question, but I googled for this without success.
And even a search in these forums was not helping, so... let's start!
It's saturday morning here and I start my weekend in one of the most disappointing ways...
Some minutes ago, my Galaxy Note showed a red icon in the status bar. I checked it, and it was Zoner antivirus. Hooray!
The malware that it found was exploit.AndroidOS.Lootor.A, and I don't know what it is, but it really sounds bad.
The disappointment went worse when I discovered that the malware (according to this antivirus) was in the latest Superuser update. Something I'm not going to uninstall without thinking twice.
What should I do? I think I'm going to follow my elephant-phone's suggestion and uninstall the update, since it's telling me that I can use "the original version" (at least, in Italian the message I see means literally that).
If you tell me -as I think- that it is just a false positive, I'll be happy to reinstall any update, but anyway I am asking for the opinion of more experienced users.
Thanks in advance!
PS: while I was writing here, there were some evolutions in this problem.
I followed the instructions and uninstalled some update (or at least the phone told me so).
Now it seems that Superuser should be uninstalled because it has inside
exploit.AndroidOS.GingerBreak.A
HELP!
I'm not going to uninstall superuser (I think I couldn't anyway), but I am worrying now!
PPS: ok googling exploit.AndroidOS.Gingerbreak.A I found that it is a false positive, so I assume that also exploit.AndroidOS.Lootor.A is safe... but I still would like some confirmations, I am quite new to Android and this is not the way I want to learn lol.
Virus scanners on android truly are pointless. They will pick up anything that changes the root permissions llike Super user or the root exploit. As long as your not using apks from iffy sites like 4shared or something you will be fine.
So how can we solve that?... I found a couple of apks on APPLANET that lead to a GAME CASINO on real market... Strange but that´s look like a virus to me...
Thank´s in advance.. Cem..
Don't use applanet unless your begging for a virus or to have your phone make calls to long distance numbers and send texts to paid account. Also no one on XDA will help you with any black market app markets.
zelendel said:
Virus scanners on android truly are pointless. They will pick up anything that changes the root permissions llike Super user or the root exploit. As long as your not using apks from iffy sites like 4shared or something you will be fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not expert enough yet to discuss your point, it just seemed weird to me since it is the very first problem I had with an android anti-malware software. I've run Superuser for something like two months without any warning...
Anyway it's solved now, even if not in the best way. Something messed up in my beloved phone when I rebooted it one moment after my last post... I had to re-synchronize all my accounts and to reinstall most of my apps, it seemed that my phone lost all app data.
Now it's ok (luckily, I've learned enough 'til now to bring it slowly back to normal) but the procedure was painful.
Great lesson here: wether you consider antimalware useful or not, don't rely on it more than on good ol' common sense!
PS: anyway, why are they pointless? Aren't they able to find possible problems? I've recently learned that "possible" problems aren't necessarily problems, but it seems strange to hear that they are useless... just an explanation please.
Always good to have a virus scanner on you're android mobile. Even i've you only downloading wrom the market it can be infected (Very small change). Nothing is secure in this world. Better to have protection one time to much then to have it to late. How more popular android is going to be, how more change you can have for infections. Even its still low. Lookout cost nothing and says nothing about my superuser and other rooting apps. I use it on my tablet and phone and it works great.
Recently read a test and no Antivirus App was able to find more 15% of the Viruses, plus they always slow my phone down.
Best solution for me is being cautious and checking permissions.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
i think it might be a good idea for all that root their devices to first understand the concept of a false posotive virus scan result
also it may be worth understanding that from anti virus software standpoint any alteration to system safety may be undesirable as its designed for the end user who doesnt even know what root is ..
increasingly android caters for 2 markets, the sort of people who come here and probably own about 30 devices including pcs tablets phones etc and love tech.
and the other market of people who own a pc with xp on it and one phone, only running android because thats what the salesman sold them - and not because they insisted on Android.
terminal 7 said:
i think it might be a good idea for all that root their devices to first understand the concept of a false posotive virus scan result
also it may be worth understanding that from anti virus software standpoint any alteration to system safety may be undesirable as its designed for the end user who doesnt even know what root is ..
increasingly android caters for 2 markets, the sort of people who come here and probably own about 30 devices including pcs tablets phones etc and love tech.
and the other market of people who own a pc with xp on it and one phone, only running android because thats what the salesman sold them - and not because they insisted on Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh I have to agree. Too many people get Android because its cool and then they root because they think its cool. They should understand what they are doing before they make a choice for the OS on their phone.
If you think running Linux is too much trouble to run and keep up on your computer why would you run it on your phone when it takes just as much to keep up?
terminal 7 said:
i think it might be a good idea for all that root their devices to first understand the concept of a false posotive virus scan result
also it may be worth understanding that from anti virus software standpoint any alteration to system safety may be undesirable as its designed for the end user who doesnt even know what root is ..
increasingly android caters for 2 markets, the sort of people who come here and probably own about 30 devices including pcs tablets phones etc and love tech.
and the other market of people who own a pc with xp on it and one phone, only running android because thats what the salesman sold them - and not because they insisted on Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, but you know, I had the naive hope that an antivirus for Android should check if an app is going to do a bad use of the permissions I give to it.
I.E. : I see a game that requires internet connection for multiplayer. It's ok, isn't it? In a perfect world, an antivirus should check if that game is going to connect to its multiplayer server or to a bad one... (it's just an example, I think that important brands aren't likely to lose their reputation that way)
Anyway, would you suggest me to give Avast a try? At least, I've seen that it has decent anti-theft features...
Max Morden said:
Yes, but you know, I had the naive hope that an antivirus for Android should check if an app is going to do a bad use of the permissions I give to it.
I.E. : I see a game that requires internet connection for multiplayer. It's ok, isn't it? In a perfect world, an antivirus should check if that game is going to connect to its multiplayer server or to a bad one... (it's just an example, I think that important brands aren't likely to lose their reputation that way)
Anyway, would you suggest me to give Avast a try? At least, I've seen that it has decent anti-theft features...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please receive this feedback as intended, respectfully and well meaning...
if your finding yourself having concerns when an anti virus flags up your rooted status and yet you still feel the need for an anti virus package i suggest you un-root and keep to a stock kernel - this way the anti virus software will inform you of any possible intrusion or system change.
if however you must have root i think you need to simply come to understand more about what the anti virus packages can do .. or actually what they are limited to doing - might i suggest spending some time learning about a popular linux distribution too as it will bring about a different frame of mind and then you will realize that the anti virus software flaging SuperUser as a virus is actually neither true or a false posotive .. its just working from a different set of perspectives to that of a confident root enabled computer user .
i hope this makes sense without coming across in the wrong way, i just really think people should learn from XDA and the devices they buy & come to XDA for help with .
Respect the info found at XDA -and its users, we all learn together here
.
No malware in superuser app. Proceed
sent from an HTC sensation on CM7 alpha #10
super user by chainsdd has been around for a long time. and was developed to make being rooted easier, a lot easier. it gives you control over all files on your device. the developer is very trusted. no worries
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium.
Thanks to every single user that chose to spend some time for this post.
I was kinda sure that Superuser had to be safe, but lack of experience made me fear that somehow I could have downloaded the wrong package, or something...
The weirdest thing, is that Superuser and antivirus have been there together for a while, so I wondered what on earth was happening.
Well, I've done a mistake and now I've learned something... it's ok.
terminal 7 said:
Please receive this feedback as intended, respectfully and well meaning...
if your finding yourself having concerns when an anti virus flags up your rooted status and yet you still feel the need for an anti virus package i suggest you un-root and keep to a stock kernel - this way the anti virus software will inform you of any possible intrusion or system change.
if however you must have root i think you need to simply come to understand more about what the anti virus packages can do .. or actually what they are limited to doing - might i suggest spending some time learning about a popular linux distribution too as it will bring about a different frame of mind and then you will realize that the anti virus software flaging SuperUser as a virus is actually neither true or a false posotive .. its just working from a different set of perspectives to that of a confident root enabled computer user .
i hope this makes sense without coming across in the wrong way, i just really think people should learn from XDA and the devices they buy & come to XDA for help with .
Respect the info found at XDA -and its users, we all learn together here
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was interesting.
First of all, I am not offended at all and I don't understand how I could.
Well I could probably live without root (except for a couple of useful apps)... but I'm not going to un-root it for now.
I am a sturdy guy and I want to learn everything (everything I am interested into, I mean) about this OS. Trying and trying again, at the cost of some little problems if needed.
As for Linux, almost all my PCs have also it inside (win7 mostly for games), and I have never had a problem worth this name when using it. Never had something like an antivirus there, just some common sense and everything was fine.
I think I should have the same attitude towards Android as many of you have suggested. And I am willing to get some more info about android's antivirus limitations. Just because I'm curious.
Can you suggest some particular post here in xda?
Thanks again!
Please use the Q&A Forum for questions Thanks
Moving to Q&A

Please explain why some ROMs and kernels work well on some phones

This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
Eckyx said:
This is a new concept to me. There are no PCs that "just don't like Windows". With the same hardware, a PC will run the same software at the same speed with the same stability. All SGS II i777's have the same hardware, don't they?
There are of course variations in the quality (=bin) of some components, but that just sets voltage boundaries for a given clockspeed (or in extreme cases, makes a phone defective), but this shouldn't affect how a ROM runs.
What am I missing?
Why do some problems persist on what seems to be a clean install on some phones, and don't manifest on others? Do some ROMs run better because of different recoveries? What's left after a full wipe?
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Zel pretty neatly answered this, but I will also add that modern consumer electronics interact with the immediate environment far more than our pcs do. Light sensors, 3g radios, barometers, etc. are far less deterministic than our classic closed-loop pcs. Part of this perception of flux is based on this real flux, for example one of the core features people will discuss is call/modem quality, but driver tweaking vs. actual signal strength is a pretty fuzzy battle for anyone but an electrical/firmware engineer. And just like in the pc world, when you're talking under volting and over clocking your mileage will vary.
If you are methodical and read all the materials, your phone will operate tip top. It seems to me a lot (not all) of the variances often do boil down to the users configuration.
Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
I have fixed a lot of computers and have been flashing custom roms for a year and ill tell you, in my personal opinion, problems are 90% user error. If people would all install properly and wipe everything completely and follow everything they're told to do and read all possible material on what they're flashing they can, a huge portion of the problems would dissapear. But is that gonna happen? I hope so
Heck I make mistakes too. None of us are immune to screwing up right? Good luck all, happy flashing.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Eckyx said:
Obviously, installed apps and settings will make a phone perform differently, but that aside, shouldn't all SGS II run the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
zelendel said:
Simple answer is no not all devices are made the same. You see this with mass produced hardware. As for your PC ref. My brother and I have the same laptop while mine loves my set up, my brother has nothing but problems with it on his system. It comes alot down to personal set up and device. This has always been the case with mobile devices and custom roms. Stock roms are set to run on all devices the same. This is not so with custom roms.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to chime in on the Windows thing - we buy a standard build HP computer at work for all developers. But if you put the same Windows disk in two of them and boot and install accepting all the defaults, there will always be slight variations in the way it configures itself between the two. It's probably the hardware detection that does it, but I swear you could get two of the same build lot and you'd STILL get something that didn't set up the same way. Sunspots? Power surge during the process? I dunno, but it does vary
You cant change the disk. Your network adapter has a MAC adress on it... windows will know something has changed. motherboard also has one.
A PC component are not the same at all.
You can buy a good I7 2600k or a bad I7 2600k. There are revisions of the very same model of CPU, memory, everything and its really hard to make 1 equal another.
Another thing is that one smartphone is a lot more delicate piece of hardware and the most important, has limited power to it components.
That makes harder to change anything on it. A small change could lead you to a failure.
just blame it on the ghosts in the machine and be done with it
votinh said:
Yes, they should and they do, absolutely with every ROM, stock or custom.
If they're purely, properly installed, they're all the same.
By "purely", I meant completely, virgin-like ROM without any add-on.
If you choose to install somethings else, to customize your needs or set it up the way you want, then it's a whole different ball game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not the case. I have tested with two different EVO 4Gs and two different SGS IIs - of the same hardware revision, even.
I performed the same steps to root and ROM both of the sets of phones, and put the same ROM on them. There were no other apps installed, nor themes/addons. I then used each as my phone for a week, making sure that I installed identical apps and even synced app data.
Both performed differently. My i777 is the faster of the two, but my EVO 4G was the slower and more bug-prone.
Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but I at least am convinced. Take it as you will.
Also the phones are made with lower quality checks than desktop. ie I can oc my sgs 1 up to 1.6GHz but uv of -25, the phone well restart. But other people can't go more than 1.2 and cab apply a uv of -150 on the same step.
This is a fact. Think if every phone it's done with high quality checks the price of the device will raise pretty high.
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
sremick said:
Once of the frustrating things is that the people responding on the forums, (ROM devs and regular users) often try to have it both ways.
If you're experiencing something they aren't, it's obviously your fault because it doesn't happen on their one phone so it can't possibly be anything but your own fault. Go wipe 50 times and do other things that will take 3+ hours each time and don't come back until you do.
Oh... you've done all that already and still having the issue? Oh well, all phones are different... tough luck, bro. I'm not going to spend any time on anything my one phone doesn't do.
(Never mind that a dozen other people have reported the exact same issue, and another several dozen are experiencing it but are too scared to post about it because they see how everyone else is being flamed, castrated or even banned for daring to suggest a bug.)
One way or another, it seems a convenient way to blow off users having legit issues.
While I suppose there might be slight deviations in components once in a blue moon, I think the "all phones are different" excuse is more often than not used as a way to easily dismiss people and issues without helping. It's been repeated over and over for so long now, the majority take it as "fact" without really putting much thought into how it could possibly be as widespread and dramatic as they're pretending it is.
I don't buy it.
Even just with modems... everyone's like, "Oh well all phones are different... some modems work better on some phones, or in different areas". What kind of BS is that? How on earth could any phone manufacturer then create a mass-market phone that worked across the country without hacking? I'm sorry, but you can't chastise and criticize the manufacturers for not producing the universal "uber-phone" that works great anywhere while at the same time admitting that "all phones are different" and therefore require hacking for your specific flavor or region. It's hypocritical.
I think it's very, very rare that actual hardware differences between the exact same model phone account for issues people experience, and is more often than not either user or dev (as much as they try to paint themselves as infallible gods) error that they don't want to bother with. "All phones are different" = "F-off, I don't want to deal with this"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
Great so what you're saying is everyone that says this (especially devs) are a bunch of dicks. Nice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
sremick said:
That's actually not what I said at all, but I know it's a lot easier to summarize my post into one sentence that makes me look like an ass, than actually look at the points that I made.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
I read the whole thing and that's exactly what it says.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
The simple answer is, there is no answer. Its the nature of the process.
I've had one click roms fail the 1st attempt only to succeed the 2nd without even closing the Odin just reconnect the phone.
Either you accept that and have fun with it. Or stick to stock and move on.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium
sremick said:
Nope. But let me simplify it for you:
1) There can't be the level of hardware variation that people claim. It's not seen in other electronics, and it's not been seen before the recent generation of smartphones. The assumption of its existence is a recent phenomenon however if it were real we'd see it everywhere, on other electronics other than phones.
2) If it were to really exist, people would lose the ability to legitimately blame the phone manufacturers for 90% of what they currently give them crap about, especially in regards to making a quality stock ROM. What are they expected to do, create thousands of variations of stock ROMs, one for ever county in the USA to compensate for this accepted "all phones are different" theology?
3) Due to it being repeated over and over and simply assumed to be true without any actual evidence to the fact, it's become a convenient way to dismiss user issues... even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary on a specific issue. This unfortunate trend causes lots of friction between users and devs. Even if it were true, it's now become an over-used dismissal without allowing for the chance that the user might be right.
People can't have it both ways, but right now there's a lot of hypocrisy. If it's true, there's been no evidence actually shown... just anecdotal experiences that could be chalked up to any number of other things. And whether it's true or its not, either way a massive amount of thinking and behavior would then have to then change... but right now, people behave like it's true and not true at the same time, which is nonsensical and frustrating.
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No you're actually wrong because sometimes things CAN go wrong with flashing stuff. And modems in fact do work better in some places than others even though they try to make them universal it is very difficult to do that. Also, if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it? Riddle me that one. Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
Nick281051 said:
if a dev doesn't see a problem, how is he supposed to fix it?
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He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Also, restoring should take at most an hour with something like titanium backup. So 3+ hours is bull.
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Click to collapse
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
Ok Here is the thing. I have personally been flashing and making custom roms for phones as far back as the Motorola razor v3. I have multiple phone running the exact same firmware, set up the exact same way and the have run totally differently. If all phone were made equal then there would be no returns due to issues the phone had as they would have all run the same and acted the same as the units that the OEM quality control tested. Lets take the Black Jack 2 as an example. The BJII was a WM phone that would self corrupt the system/media folder. This prevented any ringtones from working and the OS had to be reflashed. All this running on Stock firmware. This didnt happen to all of them, but became a well known glitch to anyone that did cell phone troubleshooting and repair. Did you ever stop to think why OEM and carriers dont use the roms from places like XDA? This is because things here are always under development. There will always be bugs. In the end the developers are making things for their phones and are nice enough to share it for others to use. Some do keep making roms for phones they dont have as this is overly not hard to do. They do this just to be nice. Except for the hardware drivers most of the under lying OS is all the same.
If a dev cant reproduce it then there is no way for them to fix it with the way people tend to report bugs. (The wrong way without the proper info)
Now lets jump to the present. I have 4 phones sitting on my desk. 2 are the HTC Inspire and 2 are the Samsung Captivate. Both running the exact same rom and apps, but guess what. They run very differently. On 1 Inspire and 1 captivate, I can OC to almost double, while the other 2 cant handle more then 1.2 over clock.
One of them also doesnt like the AOSP based software while the others are fine.
As for your backing up and restoring. It can take a long time if you have a TON of apps. Flashing custom roms are not for everyone. If you dont have the time or the want to learn something then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
sremick said:
He can start by not flaming the several people experiencing it (which scares away others also experiencing it, self-validating him and making him think the problem is less-common than it really is)
There's a difference between a problem being simply difficult for a dev to pin down and solve, and just attacking any user who dares bring up an issue that the dev himself isn't experiencing. Therein lies the hypocrisy, though: if "all phones are different", then a dev has to accept that a problem a user is experiencing might not be the result of stupidity on the user's part, and might actually be something in the ROM that simply didn't surface on the dev's phone, but is still something that needs to be addressed at the ROM level.
I totally accept that an issue the dev can't reproduce on his own phone is harder to resolve. But there are several devs who even make ROMs for phones they don't own anymore, and still manage to work with users to resolve issues. App devs do the same thing to resolve incompatibility bugs/issues with specific phone models the app dev don't own.
Not quite. Just the backup alone takes 45+ mins on my phone. The restore is the same amount, so you've got 1.5 hours right there without taking into account everything else that TB doesn't handle that needs to be reconfigured by hand, or the actual flashing, and tracking down other surprises. And because I apparently am one of the few people who care about their data, I also back up my internal SD... just in-case something goes wrong. I know the wipe shouldn't touch it... but "**** happens" and if something goes wrong during a flash and I didn't have a backup, it'd be my own fault and I'd be subsequently flamed for that. So I play it safe.
Once again, a case of users for whom its quick trying to tell everyone else they're full of BS. I accept that for some users, whether it's the # of apps, amount of data, or whatever, it goes fast for them. Lucky them. Why can't they accept the fact that it's not "10 mins" for everyone like they spread around and flame others for suggesting otherwise?
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Click to collapse
I agree with your point about the dev/user relationship. It can get pretty hostile sometimes which is completely unnecessary. Recently, I've been trying to emphasize the respect rule, regardless of who you are. Patience and cooperation can go a long way. And as zelendel said, sometimes people do report stuff the wrong way, but there's no need to be rude about it. Again, patience goes a long way.
Back to the main thing though, I'm not entirely sure how 2 fresh-out-of-the-box phones would work with the same settings and ROMs, but as others said, environmental and external factors can stress the phone and stuff just goes wrong. My phone, for example, would not operate the same as a fresh-out-of-the-box SGS2, even if you put the exact same stuff on it. Stuff just starts freaking out, and I'm pretty sure my phone is having hardware issues :[

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