My rant about At&t and I why I am angry with them about my predicament with my s7.
PLEASE READ DISCLAIMER AT THE BOTTOM AND ALL ASTRICKED ITEMS. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
I will say how disappointed in at&t I am; it should be illegal to lock phones like this. The last samsung galaxy able to be rooted was the s4 and note 2 (don't quote me on that is was guestimation). But like all the idiots caught up in the buzz of owning the newest device, I got burned by the note 4. Fool me once shame on you, but fool me twice shame on me. I got burned again on the s7, and developers on here have basically given up rooting anything else (since the note 4 crisis there's a large bounty for whomever get the first permaroot) . Maybe if millions of us write to samsung about how at&t is ruining their products, they could do something about this travesty. <b>
Well if could some root required apps to work on my phone I would be much happier. I can't even use the current version of lucky patcher, how stupid is that. <b>
If your phone isn't rooted or have never felt the joy of a rooted phone (it is like endless possibilities all in the palm of your hand), and if you don't know what rooting is, get a clue, (Google it). Beg, barrow, steal one from a guy the next County over, forge one, trade for one, find one, save up for 3 months to buy one on eBay, I don't care how you get a clue, but you need one. The ability to Root our phone should be a fundamental right. (particularly with what went on with Apple and the FBI in California) We buy the phone, pay for it's service, then you treat us like we somehow don't know something has changed. (All the sudden "security updates that happen right after finding root for other devices and then people update their devices and it is gone back to square one.) Who is going to be responsible for all the millions of phones that are going to be trash because of this?
(because now on certain devices it softbricks the phone, sure it roots it, but what good is a rooted phone when you can't use it? (I relate it to something close to ransomware, on a computer, where software hold it (the computer) hostage until you meet the criminal's demands (usually money), so that you can get your computer back, and then sometimes they just leave it in place. (nasty crap fun to get rid of without reinstalling the OS) In this case it holds your phone hostage until you meet at&t's demands of "removing non at&t software", and until such time that the software is removed it remains bricked. If you have this issue, which I have only seen it mentioned a handful of time, and happen to have a Samsung device (with or without warranty) they will fix for free and even pay shipping both ways (now that's how you keep customers happy) I still have this issue as I have not sent my phone in yet and if someone knows how to fix it I would like to know. It goes from the ransom page with the padlock unlocked and warnings from at&t, then it goes to a second page saying that I have a Reactivation Lock in place. I have tried everything stated on the forum about RL, but my case is unique because of my stupid idea of seeing if king root had figured out how to root note 4 at&t sm-N910A version. To answer your question did it work, yes and no. Read the bricking bit above.)
Surely not your loyal customers, surely not the one who actually make and put their name on the phone, no I blame the cell phone companies. They have gotten to big for their own shoes on this one, they stepped in a giant pile of it. How many millions of customers have you lost at&t? Hmmm? Answer that one. Maybe I'll be the next to jump ship, sprint has a great plan, half the price, and they'll pay our way out of the eta( early termination fee(s) ln case you didn't know) up to 600 USD on each line. Sounds good to where do I sign, oh you need to take my piece of it phone and trade it for one the COMES with an unlocked bootloader. Take it I never wanted this piece of it to begin with. Bye At&t, you had a good ride with most of us for longer than a decade, but you done shot yourself in the foot on this one. You should have never changed your name and started in the cell phone business. South Western Bell is dead, and this monstrosity that has been created is nothing more than a shell of its former company, what a bunch of sell outs. I hope you sleep good at night knowing how many people are cursing your name from every roof top and highest building. You don't play with other people's it. It isn't proper nor is it called for. Some customers will be loyal to the end, but I am sick of all the red tape and garbage we have to put up with. Higher rates for the same service? Do you think we are stupid?
DISCLAIMER
*PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS MY OWN OPINIONS. IT IS AIMED AT AT&T, AND THEIR INABILITY TO LEAVE A GOOD THING ALONE. IT IS NOT MEANT TO OFFEND US NORMAL FOLK THAT PAY RIDICULOUS PHONE BILLS EVERY MONTH. IF YOU ARE ONE OF THESE PEOPLE AND YOU FIND THIS OFFENSIVE I AM SORRY. I NEVER CUSSED OR SAID ANYTHING OFFENSIVE ABOUT OR TO AN INDIVIDUAL. *
*ANY INSTANCES OF "IT" THAT ARE EXTRAGRAMMATIC ARE A CUSS WORD IN DISGUISE AND IS SELF EXPLANATORY*
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT WITH YOUR OWN OPINIONS THIS A JUDGEMENT FREE ZONE, SO PUT SOME FEELING IN IT. OCCASIONAL SWEARING IS TO BE EXPECTED (AS LONG AS IT IS OK WITHIN THE POLICIES OF XDA IF DOUBT DON'T DO IT.).
ANY HELP WITH ABOVE STATED ISSUE PLEASE LINK BELOW SO THE POST ENDS UP IN THE PROPER SECTION (TROUBLESHOOTING AND WHATNOT).
ANYTHING FOUND IN PARENTHESES WAS ADDED FOR CLARIFICATION PURPOSES, AND NOT MEANT TO DEMEAN ANYONE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW THE TERM OF KNOWLEDGY.
IF ANYTHING IN THIS RANT HAS BEEN MISREPRESENTED OR IS INCORRECT PLEASE BRING TO MY ATTENTION.
THANK YOU TO ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY READ ALL THIS.
God bless and peace out,
Kelentaria
I switched to AT&T because of direcTV unlimited (saves me 15 bucks a month from what I was paying). I don't really care much about having root access, but I do care about being able to erase the bloat on the phone. Bloat should be optional software, not burned into the OS. Look at Windows for a PC. If you don't want an app that came preloaded, you simply uninstall it. How is that even legal to have software stuck on your phone, which you have no idea what it is doing in the background and also claim you have 32gigs of storage, but you actually only have 19?
I see some of your points, but the whole rooting thing will be an uphill battle. Each company is required by law to patch exploits that allow the system to be compromised. Unless Google makes root access standard (meaning easily unlocked with an app etc) you won't see it again , and if you do, rarely.
I could forgive them for the root issue, but not for the bloat, lack of WiFi calling on android devices, etc.
Your points and opinion is well taken here as a fellow ATT user. We won't even get Samsung to move on rooting and bootloader unlocking since they're path is the business level users. That's mostly to do with all of us modder folks being in the small minority when it comes to purchasing their phones. There should be an option to unlock the bootloader from them directly. Basically them allowing us to either choose to void our warranty to unlock the bootloader which relieves them of the responsibility of folks blaming them for their choice of modding the phone. Similar to the HTC process. But again this is my opinion. ATT on the other hand has been a constant pain with not being consumer friendly for the last 4 years from my guestimation.
psufan5 said:
I switched to AT&T because of direcTV unlimited (saves me 15 bucks a month from what I was paying). I don't really care much about having root access, but I do care about being able to erase the bloat on the phone. Bloat should be optional software, not burned into the OS. Look at Windows for a PC. If you don't want an app that came preloaded, you simply uninstall it. How is that even legal to have software stuck on your phone, which you have no idea what it is doing in the background and also claim you have 32gigs of storage, but you actually only have 19?
I see some of your points, but the whole rooting thing will be an uphill battle. Each company is required by law to patch exploits that allow the system to be compromised. Unless Google makes root access standard (meaning easily unlocked with an app etc) you won't see it again , and if you do, rarely.
I could forgive them for the root issue, but not for the bloat, lack of WiFi calling on android devices, etc.
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I suggest you try Package Disabler Pro, its a small price to pay but it works perfectly disabling bloat from Samsung devices. It is not root but at the very least it helps make touchwiz bearable.
---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------
I don't think there is a single ATT user that doesn't share your opinion but nowadays we all know what we are getting into with them. Only the Nexus line remains untouched but with the recent surge in mobile payment use the manufacturers are locking down phones harder than eve, one the plus side it helps maintain security and protect your hard earned money but sadly some sacrifices must be made. My only wish is that Samsung would finally see the light and at the very least give us the option of stock android in their devices, a tall order I know but one that would be met with enthusiasm.
glm0025 said:
I suggest you try Package Disabler Pro, its a small price to pay but it works perfectly disabling bloat from Samsung devices. It is not root but at the very least it helps make touchwiz bearable.
---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------
I don't think there is a single ATT user that doesn't share your opinion but nowadays we all know what we are getting into with them. Only the Nexus line remains untouched but with the recent surge in mobile payment use the manufacturers are locking down phones harder than eve, one the plus side it helps maintain security and protect your hard earned money but sadly some sacrifices must be made. My only wish is that Samsung would finally see the light and at the very least give us the option of stock android in their devices, a tall order I know but one that would be met with enthusiasm.
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Ive done that, but the bloat still takes up a huge chunk of space - the APKs are just disabled
there hasn't been a bootloader unlocked at&t galaxy since the S3. The S4 was bootloader locked, but anyone with AMDL firmware (the second OTA) could bypass the bootloader and load ROMs that way. Anyone that updated past that was stuck with bootstrapped ROMs. The S4 was never bootloader unlocked ever.
psufan5 said:
Ive done that, but the bloat still takes up a huge chunk of space - the APKs are just disabled
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Rooted or not, you wouldn't get that space back. The pre-installed crud is installed on the system partition which is a separate space from where user apps (and all data) are stored. If you rooted and deleted those apps, the space would just go unused. (And really, those apps don't take up much space in storage.)
On the other hand, there are things in the AT&T preload that can't be disabled. Some might be daemons that load before (and outside the scope of) android, and others are embedded deep into the existing modules (such as systemUI.) For example, AT&T still uses a variation of carrier IQ software for analytics.
However, even if you had root, you couldn't easily get rid of those things without completely changing the firmware to something else. Once you did that, you'd also lose AT&T variant specific things such as AT&T's implementation of VoLTE, video calling, etc. (Just because other firmware might support features by the same name, it doesn't mean that they'll work on AT&T's network.)
My biggest complaint these days with AT&T variants is that AT&T blocks important system updates. Even VERIZON has become better about releasing firmware updates and upgrades for android phones when compared to AT&T. (Verizon used to hold the crown of being the absolute LAST carrier to update their phones... but no more. Now AT&T clearly owns it.)
Here's the funny thing: AT&T claims that they are locking down bootloaders and such in order to have a higher level of security for business customers. Yet, by taking MONTHS longer to release firmware updates, AT&T phones are often vulnerable to malicious exploits long after those exploits have been fixed by Samsung/HTC/etc.
garyd9 said:
Rooted or not, you wouldn't get that space back. The pre-installed crud is installed on the system partition which is a separate space from where user apps (and all data) are stored. If you rooted and deleted those apps, the space would just go unused. (And really, those apps don't take up much space in storage.)
On the other hand, there are things in the AT&T preload that can't be disabled. Some might be daemons that load before (and outside the scope of) android, and others are embedded deep into the existing modules (such as systemUI.) For example, AT&T still uses a variation of carrier IQ software for analytics.
However, even if you had root, you couldn't easily get rid of those things without completely changing the firmware to something else. Once you did that, you'd also lose AT&T variant specific things such as AT&T's implementation of VoLTE, video calling, etc. (Just because other firmware might support features by the same name, it doesn't mean that they'll work on AT&T's network.)
My biggest complaint these days with AT&T variants is that AT&T blocks important system updates. Even VERIZON has become better about releasing firmware updates and upgrades for android phones when compared to AT&T. (Verizon used to hold the crown of being the absolute LAST carrier to update their phones... but no more. Now AT&T clearly owns it.)
Here's the funny thing: AT&T claims that they are locking down bootloaders and such in order to have a higher level of security for business customers. Yet, by taking MONTHS longer to release firmware updates, AT&T phones are often vulnerable to malicious exploits long after those exploits have been fixed by Samsung/HTC/etc.
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Bootloader is locked down for one reason - stop tethering on unlimited plans.
Thats about it.
psufan5 said:
Bootloader is locked down for one reason - stop tethering on unlimited plans.
Thats about it.
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You are misinformed.
I completely agree that the situation sucks. I know that this will fall over into the Note 6, and that saddens me. That is why I set up camp on the Apple side of the fence. They are always hacking into ios somehow (no fragmentation i guess?), and the OS, while still not as open as Android has matured a little. I do miss Android, but Samsung was my home, and it isn't easy switching to another OEM when their hardware designs are so different (no physical home button).
I happen to work for Sprint (for the time being), and the prices are better, but our systems suck, and our business practices are kind of shady. Hopefully I don't get into any trouble for this, but customers deserve to know the whole story. Example: a gentleman came in to get a new sim card for his S4 Mini. Now with at&t, you just go get a sim card, and all you have to worry about is standard/micro/nano. With Sprint, however, each size sim card has a wide variety of skus (barcodes), and we use a tool to see which ones are compatible with the device in question. In this guy's case, Sprint had discontinued the only sim card that would work with his phone.
To put it plainly, we force ultimatums on our customers; buy another phone, or do without. I'm actually ashamed to work for this company.
What sickens me is that they disable perfectly fine features to replace them with their crapware. I like their network coverage, but I'm really doubtful if I would/should stay with At&t anymore. I personally don't care much about the bootloader, but the fact that they are doing this sort of thing without facing any sort of push-back, is what annoys me.
sireniankyle said:
I completely agree that the situation sucks. I know that this will fall over into the Note 6, and that saddens me. That is why I set up camp on the Apple side of the fence. They are always hacking into ios somehow (no fragmentation i guess?), and the OS, while still not as open as Android has matured a little. I do miss Android, but Samsung was my home, and it isn't easy switching to another OEM when their hardware designs are so different (no physical home button).
I happen to work for Sprint (for the time being), and the prices are better, but our systems suck, and our business practices are kind of shady. Hopefully I don't get into any trouble for this, but customers deserve to know the whole story. Example: a gentleman came in to get a new sim card for his S4 Mini. Now with at&t, you just go get a sim card, and all you have to worry about is standard/micro/nano. With Sprint, however, each size sim card has a wide variety of skus (barcodes), and we use a tool to see which ones are compatible with the device in question. In this guy's case, Sprint had discontinued the only sim card that would work with his phone.
To put it plainly, we force ultimatums on our customers; buy another phone, or do without. I'm actually ashamed to work for this company.
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I get what you are saying 100% but the only problem for me is that a locked down Android device does more than a jailbreaked iPhone any day of the week.,at the end of the day Android is still more open than IOS. As of right now Marshmallow has proven good enough for me that I'm not missing root or custom roms, that I would root and unlock if I had the chance you better believe it but even 6.0 Touchwiz is bearable right now.
glm0025 said:
I get what you are saying 100% but the only problem for me is that a locked down Android device does more than a jailbreaked iPhone any day of the week.,at the end of the day Android is still more open than IOS. As of right now Marshmallow has proven good enough for me that I'm not missing root or custom roms, that I would root and unlock if I had the chance you better believe it but even 6.0 Touchwiz is bearable right now.
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It heavily depends on how well you know Cydia. . You can change everything about the layout in an iphone through winterboard or dreamboard. You can customize power options, and assign on screen and button shortcuts no matter where you are on the device (app, home screen, locked). Ad blocker, free spotify premium, a youtube downloader built into youtube, custom carrier logos, system wide night mode, keyboard sub symbols, finger print locked apps, remove the media cap in imessage or text messages, enable zedge ringtone downloads, kill all background apps, pop out video for any app, and custom folder sizes.
I can agree that a few of those are just catching up with Android, but a system wide on or off wifi ad blocker is something that only root can do. There are some things, like the no media cap in messages, that even a rooted android device can't technically do (depends on the carrier I suppose), because they don't go through Apple servers.
This isn't me crapping on Android. I love Android. I just needed a place to hold up until Samsung gets it together. I refuse to buy their locked up garbage anymore. The htc 10 is looking pretty good, too, but I was hoping for something with amoled.
Just so everyone is clear, we dont discuss piracy or fraud or such on XDA.
App developers work hard for their money, trust me it is hard to earn a living at 99cents a pop. Lets support our developers instead of supporting theft.
You're dumb. You're *****ing about a $600 term fee which is impossible for a single line. Buy your phone international or unlocked if this is such an issue for you and stop whining. The ATT model of phones are NOT for power users. Plain and simple. I'm surprised so many people are taking the time to read you *****ing.
This post is so funny...
You are all over the place with your words, your thoughts and your anger.
Why would you purchase the S7 on AT&T if you already knew all of this?
Especially if this has already happened to you with your Note 4?
End of the day, most of the customers who use AT&T have no idea about root. They have no care or concern about these things.
People like us, on XDA, who love to root and customize our phones have to understand that there is a paradigm shift in Android (particularly in regards to Samsung devices) that focuses on security rather than customization. Especially when dealing with Carrier phones. The bloat, the locked bootloader, the restrictions all have their reasons for existing.
Especially when Samsung is amidst a global (albeit slow) roll out of Samsung Pay. Trying to align themselves ever so closely with Apple in terms of quality and brand recognition.
Samsung Pay will NEVER work on a rooted phone, EVER! Doesn't matter if you restore stock firmware etc...
Carriers also have their reasons as well...
There are plenty of reasons why they both do it, most of which I don't want to sit here and write out one by one. Like you said in your post... Google it.
End of the day, if you want to root or customize your device then you should do your research before dropping $700+ on a phone.
Plenty of bloat free, bootloader unlocked, international and non carrier phones available for you to achieve root and enjoy Android.
Coming on here and posting a wall of whine just makes you look silly and childish.
Yes, it sucks... I share your annoyance as I'm sure many other AT&T/XDA members do as well - for years now.
End of the day, these mega corporations don't care about you or what makes you happy. It's a business, their business, deal with it. We all have to... If you want to protest, protest with your wallet.
HNIC215 said:
Samsung Pay will NEVER work on a rooted phone, EVER! Doesn't matter if you restore stock firmware etc...
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While I tend to agree with the majority of your post, I think this one statement I quoted might be a bit too absolute.
My understanding of SPay is that it relies on the KNOX fuse to determine if a phone is modified. If true, then if an exploit is discovered and implemented which grants root without tripping KNOX, then SPay could possibly work on a rooted device. (Hiding root is doable, and supersu has been playing the cat/mouse game with Android Pay for several months on this...)
The galaxy S6 was rootable without tripping KNOX when it was initially released...
Of course, it's possible that there's something in the samsung firmware that will immediately trip KNOX if root is even detected. If so, it's something new that hasn't been there before. Previously, tripping KNOX required an action at the bootloader level - and usually occurred when an image not signed by samsung was flashed via ODIN.
Moving slightly off topic...
The problem, in my opinion, isn't that root can't be gained. There are plenty of exploits for gaining privileges that either Samsung takes too long to patch, or that the carriers (specifically AT&T) take too long to release the patches for. (AT&T is already 2 months behind on the S7's security patches. Those are patches for security concerns that are now publicly announced and should be easily exploited by reverse engineering the fixes that google publishes.)
The real problem is that people who would develop and publish a root method for hobbyists don't care anymore. Those people aren't going to buy a bootloader locked S7. Either they'll buy a different phone entirely (from a manufacturer that's more dev friendly), or they'll buy a non-carrier model that isn't bootloader locked. (Actually, there's another group, but it's very small: Industry insiders who are constrained by legal agreements (such as NDA's) preventing them from releasing anything they might come up with.)
garyd9 said:
While I tend to agree with the majority of your post, I think this one statement I quoted might be a bit too absolute.
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That's what a Samsung Rep told me when I had the international Note 5 and wanted to know if I would be able to use Samsung Pay here in the states.
First, they said Samsung Pay would have to be available in the device's country of origin.
Second, they said the device can NEVER be rooted. If the device is rooted, it will NEVER be able to run Samsung Pay on it for the remainder of its life. Regardless if you restore with stock firmware and unroot.
Which makes sense actually when you think about it.
Apple is and has been synonymous with security and safety - in general but especially in regards to Apple Pay.
Samsung has always been considered the "Apple" or "iPhone" of the Android world - this statement holds true now more than ever before.
With Samsung Pay being released globally (slowly but surely)... Samsung will not risk the security of their platform by any means at all.
Letting users gain root access to their devices can potentially expose parts of their secure Samsung Pay platform and risk a major security or privacy incident that would lead to global fallout regardless of where the incident took place.
They will never allow this - especially with the progress they have made over the years to build a premium brand.
With the S7 and S7 Edge - they further that tradition and bring more security than ever.
Don't take my word for it...
Samsung Knox recognised as the strongest mobile security platform
Samsung has received strongest ratings for its mobile security platform Knox in areas including authentication methods, encryption management, jailbreak or root protection and application vetting.
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The latest version of Knox is currently available for Galaxy S7 and S7 Edge and optimised for Android 6.0 Marshmallow.
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According to a report, Mobile Device Security: A comparison of Platforms by renowned market analyst firm Gartner, Samsung's latest security platform Knox version 2.6 got the most strong ratings for any mobile security platform. The firm analysed the core OS security features built into a total of 12 mobile device platforms as well as enterprise management capabilities. Samsung also managed to gain leadership in mobile security market though Knox, coupled with Samsung Pay.
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Source:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/samsung-knox-recognised-strongest-mobile-security-platform-1554836
HNIC215 said:
That's what a Samsung Rep told me when I had the international Note 5 and wanted to know if I would be able to use Samsung Pay here in the states.
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Okay.. I wonder if he's related to one of the "samsung reps" that work in Best Buy stores.... or the ones that come visit AT&T stores on occasion. For the most part, they are really good in reciting the marketing material, but when it comes to details, they are clueless. In fact, at least as bad as Radio Shack sales people.
"KNOX" is a confusing term.
First, there's "KNOX" as a software security suite that is very closely related to what google calls "Android for Work." Both are basically a "secure" and private container/sandbox. The idea is that you take a personal smartphone to work and can run "work" apps that are completely sandboxes from personal apps. This has nothing whatsoever to do with SPay. SPay doesn't make use of this element of KNOX.
KNOX is also the name of a fuse in the device (which is likely a qualcomm "qfuse" in the SD820 S7's) that trips when the bootloader detects an unsigned kernel/recovery. _THIS_ is the KNOX that relates to SPay. Real human beings (not samsung sales or support reps) have confirmed that once the KNOX fuse is tripped, it prevents SPay from working. (It also prevents KNOX, the software suite mentioned above, from working.)
Now I need to express things in strange ways, and I hope you'll forgive the odd phrasing:
As far as devs on XDA and other sites similar to XDA have been able to determine, "root" does not prevent SPay from functioning. In fact, my understanding is that there are people who rooted their Galaxy S6 without tripping the KNOX fuse, later reverted to factory firmware, allowed the phone to OTA to newer firmware that included SPay, and SPay worked fine. However, there are others who have tripped the KNOX fuse while rooted who can no longer use SPay. The key here is that KNOX fuse...
I can say with a very large degree of confidence that SPay will work just fine if you happened to had a device that somehow had a working "su" binary in the path AND KNOX wasn't tripped. That might happen if the bootloader was designed to not trip KNOX... such as someone who developed software for preloads might have on a test device. Based only on information in the public domain, it might also happen if an exploit was found that didn't require flashing a custom kernel, recovery, etc.
It's POSSIBLE, and I actually don't know this, that the firmware released on these devices publicly has code to force tripping the KNOX fuse if root is detected. The galaxy S6 did NOT have this mechanism when towel root (or whatever root method it was) worked on it. I somehow doubt that samsung would have added this to the firmware, as there's too great a chance for a false positive, and tripping that KNOX flag is permanent.
In android user terms, a "rooted" device is merely a device that has a working suid "su" binary in the path owned by the 'root' user. (Later versions of android also require some sepolicy changes, but that's outside the scope of this thread.) That binary might be on /system or it might be in the kernel partition. However, neither is a permanent change to the device, and therefore it can be removed with no trace.
garyd9 said:
Okay.. I wonder if he's related to one of the "samsung reps" that work in Best Buy stores.... or the ones that come visit AT&T stores on occasion. For the most part, they are really good in reciting the marketing material, but when it comes to details, they are clueless. In fact, at least as bad as Radio Shack sales people.
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No this wasn't in person... Nor was it someone from the states (from what I could tell).
It was with a technician over the phone because the first customer service rep had no idea - so she transferred me to a technician.
Regardless, there is no point in discussing this endlessly.
There are already plenty of folks out there who are trying to solve this issue, only time will tell if they can succeed.
Let's see what happens.
Related
I figure with apple it's a lost cause to begin with. I guess it's just how they want it. they want to limit the people to what they deem is good enough for iOS
but google and AOSP on the other hand...
it's an open enviroment with the source code publicly available.
why won't google allow the devices to come pre rooted?
it's like buying a windows PC, but you can't access the windows folder, or linux with no root access (no sudo)
It makes me think because of possible security breaches and possible lawsuits? but if that's the case, it would have happened with linux and windows machines that allow root access...
just got me curious...
what's the method to the madness here?
Its up to carriers and OEMs. Google has no say in the matter. On Nexus phones it is damn easy to root phones and the Nexus One practically was prerooted.
Google doesnt stop anyone from selling phones prerooted, in fact, I would assume they encourage it.
I've been wondering this for a while now actually.
I think I'd be tempted to punch the poor guy who sold me a windows computer with no admin access..
Why do we (as a culture) not get outraged we aren't suppose to have full access to our phones?
Being totally honest here.. the "you could mess something up" logic doesn't work for me..Try telling any computer user who has had to use admin access for *ANYTHING* that..
Agreed. Google really is a company for their consumers. As stated above I'd assume they'd have pre-rooted phones. Though, I wouldn't think it'd be up to the carrier, more so the manufacturer. The carrier usually has to do with their bloatware. HTC made a statement in May saying their new phones after said statment will have unlocked bootloaders (they haven't kept that by the way). Rooting is easy though, its just cracking though bootloaders that allows custom roms, now that's the issue, especially Motorola devices.
Sent from my LG-P925 using xda premium
perhaps when it's rooted, people will 'customize' it too much, causing too much warranty replacements, and the manuf doesn't wanna deal with it?
I assume they void this risk by making it so that it's hard and pita to root it, and causing void of warranty, so they aren't responsible when the phone is bricked.
but it's not like if I destroy my windows on my computer, dell will come and fix it. (they do provide the tech support though I think? I don't know)
problem is, we're a sue happy country. so... I think that has alot to do with it.
razorseal said:
perhaps when it's rooted, people will 'customize' it too much, causing too much warranty replacements, and the manuf doesn't wanna deal with it?
I assume they void this risk by making it so that it's hard and pita to root it, and causing void of warranty, so they aren't responsible when the phone is bricked.
but it's not like if I destroy my windows on my computer, dell will come and fix it. (they do provide the tech support though I think? I don't know)
problem is, we're a sue happy country. so... I think that has alot to do with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
youve pretty much nailed it. almost.
99% of PHONE users do not mod and do not need/should have access to things that can prevent their phone from working anymore.
Imagine just being some dumb-ass, who 'pocket dials' deleting system apps, or the phone.apk... or is 'deleting the garbage' in download folder.. BUT its NOT the download folder... oops!
but you are no normal dumb-ass, you own a multi-million dollar company, and you cant receive or make time sensitive calls!!!?? because you accidentally deleted important stuff in your pocket... that IS a law suit.
remember this is a PHONE, not a computer.
tabets you have a case...
There should be a option when you first boot (or reflash) more or less like this:
Do you want to root your phone?
Root is used by advanced users and developers. If you don't know what this means, press 'No'.
Yes////// No
Sent using Mini CM7 Pro by Paul
.
Thread moved to Q&A due to it being a question. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
The biggest issue lies with the carriers and manufacturers, not Google. The carriers don't want you to use wireless tethering without paying them for it. The manufacturers don't want to replace phones broken by some idiot that doesn't know how to read.
I agree that most users don't know what root is and have no business modifying system files. However, it would be nice if all phones were as easy to root as Nexus phones. Just OEM unlock and be done with it. Unfortunately folks would catch on and tethering would skyrocket. The carriers can't have that.
There's also the issue of malicious apps. On a non-rooted phone, an app can only access so much data and its permissions are laid out in plain text upon install. On a rooted phone, an app without any permissions can access the same data. People are used to always accepting when Windows prompts them for admin access, and they'd do the same when prompted for Superuser access. I wish all of the root methods released, specifically the automated ones, required you to pass a test before rooting. There are too many people rooting their phones and then getting into a jam because they were too lazy to read.
I feel like the number of uneducated root users would drop if carriers and manufacturers would do a few things. If carriers made tethering plans affordable, people wouldn't root just for that reason. If manufacturers made bloatware uninstallable - not stuff like phone.apk or systemui.apk, but the apps that can be downloaded from the market or aren't necessary for the phone to run - then less people would root for that reason. You'd also get less obnoxious reviews on the market saying "omfg like I can't uninstall it you suck I'd give it zero stars if I could" that lower the rating on well developed apps.
Okay, end rant.
Supersonic Evo 4G | MIUI | Tapatalk
plainjane said:
There's also the issue of malicious apps. On a non-rooted phone, an app can only access so much data and its permissions are laid out in plain text upon install. On a rooted phone, an app without any permissions can access the same data. People are used to always accepting when Windows prompts them for admin access, and they'd do the same when prompted for Superuser access.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed, with a rooted phone you'll definitely have a less secure system if you don't know how to use it correctly. This point alone makes it not worth to give root access to normal users imo. I'm an app developer and I can say that I manage fine without a rooted phone and I have absolutely no need to root either, so far...
I can add that I don't live in US either so I don't know what kind of limitations you are bypassing there by rooting but that WiFi tethering is no problem for me without root access.
I am not here to start a flame war. I am here to express my honest opinion. I would be more than happy to engage in polite rhetoric, but I will ignore any post containing personal attacks and completely illogical jumps/wild conjecture.
I have been paying very close attention to the OPMOSH movement, and I must say, I am extremely disappointed with what I have seen. To those who have already stopped, I thank you for either realizing that this movement is not going to accomplish its stated goal, or for giving up and moving on to another manufacturer's device, which I truly hope you are enjoying.
For those still pursuing this course of action, I offer the following:
Motorola Mobility, in response to a very poorly written reply from one of their Facebook page operators, stated that they were working with carriers to provide a solution that allowed their devices to be open to developers, and still stisfied their overall security policies. This statement was not a promise to unlock anything, merely stating that they were working towards a solution.
In April of 2011, Motorola released a statement that it was their intention to offer unlockable/relockable bootloaders across their portfolio in late 2011 where carriers would allow it. Again, this statement is not a promise, but a clarification and expansion of their Facebook reply in January. They were aiming for deployment in late 2011, but they didn't explicitly state that there would definitely be an unlock tool at that time.
In October of 2011, Motorola stated that the Motorola Razr would have an unlockable bootloader if the carrier wanted it. This statement is indeed a promise, but there was no timeline given for its deployment. If they were still on course for late 2011, I'm absolutely certain they would have been more than happy to announce that as well. Since they did not say the tool would be available at launch, nor did they say when it would be available, the only logical conclusion is that it would be made available when it was ready and the proper agreements had been reached with each specific carrier, which I'd gather is more difficult than simply notifying the carrier of their intended action.
And so, we come to OPMOSH. The thread was started on the xda website on January 4th of 2012. The idea was that if enough people screamed loud enough, and long enough, and disrupted their operationss enough, Motorola Mobility would give in to the demands of the community and provide the unlock tool that was "promised" nearly a year prior.
Except there was no promise, there is no "right" to having an unlocked bootloader. There is a possible FCC violation, but at this point I'm absolutely sure they are aware of the situation, and we can let them go about their investigation. They won't tell us the progress on such investigation, but continually showering them with notifications will not speed the process.
Motorola's position is fairly well laid out in post #40 of the Razr Developer Edition discussion thread on their official forums. For those who don't want to Google it, essentially one of the forum managers states that they have had issues with working with the developer community in the past, and are not exactly jumping at the chance to open what they see as a Pandora's box of sorts. And, based on the actions taken by many supporting OPMOSH, I really can't blame them. The community has shown that they are willing to maliciously disrupt Motorola's normal business operations because they want something they are not entitled to in the first place. OPMOSH is the equivalent of a smear campaign, and if Motorola were to give in at this point and provide an unlock tool, it would only open them to further abuse from the community, or anyone else who wants a particular feature they think is "necessary" or their "right".
And before anyone throws the "it can't be *insert carrier*, they let the Nexus/HTC/Samsung phone be unlocked", I'm certain that each carrier has an agreement with each phone manufacturer that differs in key aspects. In the Verizon/Motorola agreement, there could very well be a clause that prevents Motorola from unlocking their devices. Obviously, encrypting the locked bootloader was Motorola's choice, but by doing so they can more effectively market their products to the lucrative enterprise and government accounts, who welcome such details to retain the integrity of their intranets. I know several IT departments that have issued Droid X2s, and more recently Razrs, to replace aging Blackberries for precisely this reason. True, some others are starting to use HTC and Samsung handsets, but there is no denying that Motorola produces the most secure and business oriented devices of any current major manufacturer.
And so, it is my firm opinion that based upon the above arguments, OPMOSH needs an immediate and total cease and desist. We are shooting ourselves in the foot at this point. They are removing/ignoring posts on their Facebook because that is their right. They are removing/ignoring tweets because that is their right. We do not have the right to abuse, slander, or otherwise disrupt any corporate entity, when they are well within their own rights to distribute their products within the confines of their legal obligations based upon binding carrier agreements which were most likely made long before having a locked bootloader became such a huge issue.
If you do not like the handset you have, sell or trade it for another one through Swappa, eBay, or Craigslist. If you like the handset you have, then be patient. I can guarantee that Motorola has heard what now amounts to little more than whining, and will move forward with their stated intent of unlocking their bootloaders where they can, and possibly (hopefully) working to renegotiate their carrier agreements to allow unlocked bootloaders. Thinking that all it takes for Motorola to unlock their bootloaders is to flip a switch and there will be no repercussions to that decision is to not only overlook important facts, but in the end is simply wishful thinking. If it really was that simple, then all HTC phones would have been unlockable as soon as their site went live.
Regardless, by pitching the internet equivalent of a child's fit, constantly bombarding Motorola's social media outlets, and wasting the time of several Motorola employees in the process, we are only reaffirming Motorola's view of our lack of trustworthiness as a community.
I, for one, love my Motorola device. I will continue to hack it to my liking and to the best of my ability. I will share anything I think is cool or interesting with the community because I want to do so, not because I am or feel obligated to. I will make the choice to believe that I am not limited by the manufacturer of my device, but only by my imagination and ingenuity. I will continue to support the countless devs who use their precious personal time to enhance my user experience far beyond what I thought possible.
Finally, I will continue to believe that Motorola still intends to follow through on their statements, and are working toward a solution that will allow us to have the freedom to do as we please with our phones, while providing a strong and secure experience to the customers who require such things.
I appreciate anyone who has made it this far, and apologize for the wall of text. I hope that my plea does not go unnoticed, and can bring at least some sanity to our community.
TL;DR : Motorola never promised us anything. We do not have any right to an unlocked bootloader, any more than we have a right to use exploits in the Android code to gain root access. OPMOSH is a smear campaign that is likely to only serve to deepen Motorola's distrust in the Android development community. Only by stopping OPMOSH, and showing faith in Motorola as a company, will they ever see fit to give us what we ask for, and start to close the massive rift that has come between us.
As an aside, I am in no way affiliated with Motorola or any of its partners. I'm just a guy who is severely disappointed at the lack of reason and basic decency shown by the Motorola development community with regards to this situation. I have no illusion that my opinion means anymore than anyone else's, but I felt that I must at least try to forestall what I see as the only possible outcome should this operation continue, which is that Motorola will issue a statement that despite their best efforts they did not find a solution which is feasible at this time beyond offering special "developer edition" phones.
Kindly post a link to this "post #40" of which you speak of...
I have tried looking for it on their Support Forums, and their Developer Forums but I could not seem to find it.
This is an interesting post, and - if nothing else - I appreciate the amount of thought you've put into it.
I can agree on some points, and do feel that social media smear campaigns and/or armchair activism will accomplish little beyond hot air, as Motorola have not shown any indication that they're willing to budge. Endless Facebook spam does little to aid anyone, since the poor social media team and other customer-facing representatives are, in all likelihood, on the side of the customers they have to deal with on a daily basis, and have little to no power to make the fundamental changes we seek.
I have no doubt that there are Motorola representatives both among us, and on 'our side', as it were. There have been leaks galore, including one that resulted in the Atrix's bootloader being unlocked, a massive boon for its community. The GSM RAZR has already seen an early ICS leak, which was very welcome. Whispers and rumours have it that Moto has had some falling out with the developer community at some point. If anyone knows more about this, I'm very interested.
What you're missing, here, is a combination of expectation and impression. To make it personal, this is the first Motorola device I have personally owned, as there simply haven't been any flagship Moto devices that came in GSM flavours as well as CDMA (Aside from the too-little-too-late nobody-really-cares Milestone range, and the Atrix, which was a great idea that ended up outdated by launch). The RAZR's wonderful industrial design spoke to me, as did its SAMOLED screen, as Samsung have spoiled me and I can't stand LCDs any more. So I took the plunge, shifting from the very popular and very well supported Galaxy S II. No offense to Moto, their hardware is lovely, but their software is awful, the battery life is awful (A bigger battery is a very blunt force solution, re: RAZR MAXX), and it disappoints me greatly that I can’t change that when I could with my past three Android phones, and even my last Windows Mobile phone. I don't fully regret making the shift, but in retrospect, I wish I'd bought a Galaxy Note or Galaxy Nexus instead.
There are reasons for locking bootloaders that, disagree as I may, make a degree of sense. There's 'security', there's DRM content, there's enterprise IT requirements, and there's (supposedly) carrier requirements. But at this point, there's really not much reason to keep it locked, as the only thing it does is prevent running unsigned kernels. ROMs can be flashed, security can be breached, bloatware can be removed, and all that reasoning is essentially null and void. There is no advantage to a locked bootloader when a device is already rooted, it really doesn't provide any added security - indeed, the ability to flash one's own custom kernel compiled from source is the domain of the security conscious, not the casual user who might haphazardly harm their device - which, again, is certainly possible without the bootloader being unlocked.
There is really no good, specific argument in favour of locking the bootloader, especially when other OEMs – see: HTC, Sony Ericsson – are happy to provide tools that allow this, and Motorola did lead consumers to believe that the RAZR would be unlocked in much the same manner. A quick Googling leads me to this post here, which I believe to be the origin: http://ausdroid.net/2011/10/21/motorola-razr-to-be-unlockable/
Here, one Christy Wyatt is quoted as saying that the GSM variant of the RAZR would have an unlockable/relockable bootloader, and that Verizon had disabled this feature. The interesting thing about “where carriers allow” is that a large number of GSM RAZRs are sold SIM-free, and contain no carrier branding. There is no carrier to disallow the unlocking of the bootloader. Where is the excuse here?
I think it’s safe to say that the majority of RAZR owners pushing for the bootloader unlock would be happy to give up any features Moto – or carriers – feel the bootloader needs to be locked to enable. Webtop? DRM? Citrix? Enterprise security? Honestly, it seems like Moto is trying to market their devices to a specific niche, the BYO corporate market, and it feels to me that there’s too many compromises for what amounts to a relatively small segment (Or one that’s happy with iOS/Blackberry/et cetera anyway). Take a record of my IMEI. Disable as many stock features as you like. I would even give up Activesync support if I could have that unlocked bootloader.
These phones are hardware platforms, computing platforms. Back when the original Milestone was released – the delayed GSM counterpart to the original Droid – its bootloader was locked where the Droid’s was not. Motorola representatives went as far as to suggest that development enthusiasts purchase the then-current Nexus One instead of a Milestone. Bad form to actively turn their customers towards the competition. Android development has bloomed in the last few years, and it’s now expected that one should be able to modify one’s mobile device, just as has been the case with desktop hardware for decades. When one buys a phone, one owns that hardware. Even if they only have a ‘license’ to Motorola’s (Flawed) flavour of the software, they currently have no choice but to use it, and it’s an expectation of the open-source Android operating systems that its hardware platforms should be open for development.
There’s two more factors, here. One is damage control. Regardless of how this came about, consumers DID get the impression that – at the very least – the open market GSM RAZR would have an unlockable bootloader. It does not. Moto have only issued vague statements, some of which specifically mentioned software solutions (rather than “Buy another phone”) but have done very little to clarify the situation, or to placate their increasingly upset userbase.
Motorola might not ‘owe’ us an unlocked bootloader, per se, but they do owe their audience some clarity and some answers. It was also suggested in the above article that the bootloader solution may be rolled out with the Ice-Cream Sandwich updates, but this too has been a point of contention. Many are very disappointed with the Q2 timeframe when, again, the expectation was that the RAZR would be swiftly updated and not leave fans disappointed that they opted for a device shipping with an old OS revision when the new one was announced the same day as the RAZR itself. Moto have not been clear – and yes, I know there’s the old business mantra of underpromise and overdeliver, but it’s been going from bad to worse. Which brings me to the final factor…
The ‘Developer Edition’ is no solution at all. It is hardly fair to anyone, least of all existing customers who purchased the original RAZR in good faith, to announce a hardware revision to circumvent a firmware restriction. No warranty, full retail price for the same hardware, and just to make it laughable, the development device can’t even be unlocked at present.
TL;DR?
Yes, childish spam and/or smear campaigns on social media channels are childish. But there is no good reason for the bootloader to remain locked, and many customers purchased the device under the impression that an unlock method would be provided. Motorola’s communication has been poor at best, and people are understandably upset.
"I can guarantee that Motorola has heard what now amounts to little more than whining"
Please explain.
How long have you worked for Motorola?
And a short answer to your question:
NO!
In my opinion the problem is not only the locked bootloader. The bootloader is only a trigger that forced people to go over the edge. The problem is the arrogant and ignorant stance the motorola has been taking toward the common user of their devices. I know we live in an ultra capitalist world where "big players" can get away with anything, but in my opinion that alone should not be the reason for all of us to just give in and take it up our butts. Maybe these kinds of rebellions don't bring much success right away, but it sure as hell reminds these people that what they are doing will make some noise, and maybe will at least force them to think twice next time.
If we talk about this specific case: I understand that to some 400+ euro is not a lot of money, but to some it is almost their entire monthly paycheck and if i am willing to spend so much money on a product, the producer can expect from me wanting to get some "love" in return. Of course it is not their legal obligation, but just common logic that not all of us will be quiet and let them get away with anything and that is very important....what i was saying earlier. I'm sure in todays world when people are being eaten alive by the current political and social system, a little "love" (even if its fake), can take a company a long way and can in a long run be a market advantage and bring more money to that company. And money is the only thing they really care about. Well maybe 10.000-15.000 signatures are very little, but 5+ million users of xda now have heard or know for a fact (many known before OPMOSH) that motorola is the most unfriendly user company in the market. These people being a bit of tech-geeks have friends that come to them for advice when buying new phones,.... and very soon you come to a number ob 20+ million people having an argument against buying your product. And that is a very bad thing in todays highly competitive market where differences between products are very small.
So what i want to say is, that no matter what the way, it is always important that not all people are quiet, because even if it doesn't look like it straight away, it does makes a difference....maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but surely the day after that
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1511364
It does in fact elicit a response, so it is working
Im happy I also own a Xperia. I got my Razr because I belived the an article about the loader. Wont do that again.
http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp/2012...e-for-unlocked-2011-xperia-smartphone-models/
Sent from my XT910 using Tapatalk
Well put by the OP and too have an honest opinion. I have followed the threads and it started strong but just like the whole "Occupy Wall Street/whatever city they wanna occupy" movement, it lost the true message and became a bunch of adults acting like spoiled 3 year olds when an adult tells them no. I could care less about an unlocked bootloader, I care more about rooting my Android phone and being able to use a stable custom ROM. I understand however taking a stand for a product we own. If y'all desperately want an unlocked bootloader got get the GNex
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
kimo91 said:
I could care less about an unlocked bootloader, I care more about rooting my Android phone and being able to use a stable custom ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous opinion to hold. I can understand frustration at people's behaviour, and I can understand playing devil's advocate, but custom ROMs are practically little more than themes without custom kernels. The locked bootloader is the reason we don't have a wide selection of stable custom ROMs for you to flash.
Enjoy your 'themes and tweaks'.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
onslaught86 said:
I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous opinion to hold. I can understand frustration at people's behaviour, and I can understand playing devil's advocate, but custom ROMs are practically little more than themes without custom kernels. The locked bootloader is the reason we don't have a wide selection of stable custom ROMs for you to flash.
Enjoy your 'themes and tweaks'.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rediculous opinion? Last I checked I wasn't one if the many that claimed to be duped into buying a phone because Motorola said they would unlock the bootloader. I bought my Razr to suit my everyday needs, accessibility to root, and what not. Who cares if the current roms out now are mainly themed and has tweeked kernels, cause I simply don't. If my simple ways of using my phone or even customizing it the way i like it then im one of the few that perfers my phone the way it is currently. You sound like one of the many sheep out there that bought the Razr for Motorola to unlock the bootloader. Baaaaaa
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
kimo91 said:
Rediculous opinion? Last I checked I wasn't one if the many that claimed to be duped into buying a phone because Motorola said they would unlock the bootloader. I bought my Razr to suit my everyday needs, accessibility to root, and what not. Who cares if the current roms out now are mainly themed and has tweeked kernels, cause I simply don't. If my simple ways of using my phone or even customizing it the way i like it then im one of the few that perfers my phone the way it is currently. You sound like one of the many sheep out there that bought the Razr for Motorola to unlock the bootloader. Baaaaaa
Sent from my rooted and Safe Strapped Motor DROID RAZR
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You like custom ROMs and claim not to care about unlocked bootloaders. Do you genuinely not see the fundamental contradiction in that, or are you just arguing the point because it's cool to be non-conformist these days?
Unlocking the bootloader affects you and your usage of the phone all of not - that's great, good for you. But it does affect plenty of other people, and your being a little tired of seeing them complain on social media channels does not invalidate their claim.
Sent from my XT910 using xda premium
Do not attack or offend other users regardless of your PERSONAL opinions. Keep this thread clean from abusive, flaming or attacks.
I received the below e-mail today. I did not appreciate being contacted out of the blue via e-mail; if you feel the need to contact me, use XDA's tagging feature. With that said, I thought I'd reply in public with my thoughts on the matter, hoping to drive a constructive conversation about Verizon Wireless' restrictions for devices on their network. My initial response is in post 2.
Please, think through your responses before posting. Make sure they ADD to the conversation.
What do you think of having everyone from XDA and the CM community using the DINC 4G LTE file Better Business Bureau complaints against verizon? It made a business decision not to give us updates, and has deliberately removed the DINC 4g from the HTC Unlock program. They shouldn't be allowed to abandon the platform and to remove unlocking ability that was there.
BBB asks them to respond within 14 days. [edit: link removed]
or have you already tried this route?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will leave it up to the writer of the e-mail if he/she would like to make himself/herself known here.
Can you point to a single advertisement by either HTC or Verizon that the Droid Incredible 4G LTE would ever be included in HTCDev's unlocked bootloader program? Even HTC's generic advertisements include disclaimers that some devices may not be included due to various restrictions (the most obvious being carrier refusal). HTC can justify the ability to unlock the bootloader pre-public availability as a means to let developers directly related to software development and quality assurance alter the ROM before release. To a handful of end users who get the device in the early days of release, they get to sneak in and use the unlocker under the "Other devices" category of the program. I suspect we owe HTC a thank you for dragging their feet for a week before disabling the unlock ability for this (and several other) device(s). There is no legitimate complaint that can be filed towards Verizon concerning this matter since they never advertised this as an available feature.
On the topic of abandoning the platform, software-wise, the last available software update for the Incredible 4G still works with reasonable stability and all advertised features are enabled. It is natural for technology devices to age and need replacement; a balance has to be struck between user content or disdain and extent of support. Verizon has apparently deemed there will be very little blowback by prematurely ending software updates. Considering the number of users I see in the XDA forum section for this phone, I'd guess they're right. About the only sticking point that could be leveraged to force a software update out of Verizon is if there are security vulnerabilities that are either being actively exploited or pose a real threat of being exploited in the near future.
Succinctly, we are at the mercy of Verizon's "generosity" concerning extended functionality of, and software updates for, the phones on their network. With these thoughts, I believe we can only ask them to help us out... with reason, anger, begging, or whatever tactic you find most influential. I don't think we can force their hand.
Your thoughts XDAers?
I agree with mdmower. Having come from the OG Droid, I had zero expectation for HTC or Verizon to let me unlock the phone. While I did not expect this phone to be the left-handed, red-haired step-child twice removed orphan of Verizon, it is a great phone with a 4" screen. The size is good (still prefer OG Droid) and the processor and internet speeds are great. I personally am quite content with this phone. We have been blessed with some extremely talented developers and supporters who have
Developed a method to unlock despite HTC/Verizon
Developed two methods for s-off:
DirtyRacun - IMHO, unlimited.io did a great job
FacePalm - Haven't tried, but looks great
Two great recoveries:
Official CWM Recovery, Plus PhilZ
TWRP Recovery
Developed an Incredible Rock Solid Sense ROM in ViperLTE
Developed a solid, official CyanogenMod ROM .
There are probably more, but those are just off of the top of my head. I am also still seeing great ongoing development work for ROMs for this phone. Sure, this phone doesn't have the plethora of ROMs that the OG Droid, Dinc2, Rezound, or [insert model here], but what we do have is solid.
I'm not exactly sure what Verizon owes us. We have a great phone with a great 4GLTE network (at least in my area). It should also be noted that Verizon actually put out an OTA for the OG Dinc around 2+ years after its release with "Improvements and fixes". I would expect the same for this phone as well. I too believe that threats, anger, etc. will not do anything more than generate ill will.
Just my $0.03.
P.S. Why do we still care if there is an "official" bootloader unlock? As mentioned above, we have a proved method to unlock bootloader and/or gain s-off. Even HTC's site says that unlocking bootloader through their "official" site may void your warranty.
HTC Dev said:
Please understand that you will not be able to return your device to the original state and going forward your device may not be held covered under the warranty for all claims resulting from the unlocking of the bootloader. HTC bears no responsibility if your device is no longer usable afterwards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only thing to take away from this is to avoid Verizon and HTC. They may not owe us anything more than we received, but they are clearly sub-par companies compared to others. Unfortunately, I can't ditch Verizon just now because I'm on a shared plan, but I will never buy an HTC phone again.
junkmail9 said:
I agree with mdmower. Having come from the OG Droid, I had zero expectation for HTC or Verizon to let me unlock the phone....
P.S. Why do we still care if there is an "official" bootloader unlock?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to clarify, I'm not content with the support Verizon has offered for this phone, I just realize that we cannot expect them to continue support. I am still not sure about the best avenues of communication with Verizon Wireless, so in a feeble attempt to get their attention, I write a short #openletter on G+.
A far as the official bootloader unlock, it is a little important. An example is the recently advertised CM installer (by the way, I do not have any insider knowledge about CM Inc.). The installer will almost surely be available only to devices with legitimate unlock ability. While the fireball is pretty much "a bit"-out-of-luck even if it did get official unlock, due to the inability to flash the boot partition while in recovery, at some point users need to convince Verizon Wireless to allow unlocked bootloaders for phones on their network. This is especially relevant to the many, many users who are wise enough to not tinker with their phones because of lack of knowledge. They deserve the opportunity to safely replace the legacy operating system on their phone, and this will only be possible if the carrier and manufacturer allow it.
The open letter seems pointless, besides maybe allowing other people to see and take note that Verizon ignores certain customers. As far as our phone though, no point really. Anyone you reach through G+, Facebook, Twitter, Verizon's customer service contacts, etc. will have no real power to do anything. They just give the typical "sorry, we're doing our best" garbage. The message never reaches anyone important enough to actually do anything. The only way a message may get to them is if the user base is very large, but even if we all wrote to them everyday it wouldn't help. Not enough people for them to care. As you said, we're at their mercy. Just have to wait.
mdmower said:
A far as the official bootloader unlock, it is a little important. An example is the recently advertised CM installer (by the way, I do not have any insider knowledge about CM Inc.). The installer will almost surely be available only to devices with legitimate unlock ability. While the fireball is pretty much "a bit"-out-of-luck even if it did get official unlock, due to the inability to flash the boot partition while in recovery, at some point users need to convince Verizon Wireless to allow unlocked bootloaders for phones on their network. This is especially relevant to the many, many users who are wise enough to not tinker with their phones because of lack of knowledge. They deserve the opportunity to safely replace the legacy operating system on their phone, and this will only be possible if the carrier and manufacturer allow it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is an excellent point I had not considered. I was not thinking about the larger issue, (nor am I savvy with the upcoming CM installer). Unfortunately, I have run into a few companies that have seriously dummied down their products because, as one tech support person told me, "some users may have a problem with the advanced features so we removed them." While I can try and understand that point, it was really frustrating because some advanced features I had come to rely on were removed in the product upgrade. Simply because some people could not comprehend how to use it properly? Is Verizon trying to protect us from ourselves, dummy down the phones for "the uneducated masses," or simply trying to force their customers to live with Verizon-installed bloatware?
Okay I have My own say to this.!
Okay so I left AT&T network when I owned the HTC Inspire 4g and moved on to Verizon because there service was better in my area and I purchased the HTC Droid Incredible 4G LTE as my first phone with Verizon, I came to like the phone because it was fast, snappy, and good on battery....... But I constantly waited for update to jellybean ( Sense 4+ ) which in reality would make the device more efficient and smoother than it was on Ice Cream Sandwich... And finally I heard the news that we were going to get an update to jellybean in the beginning of 2013.. But after so much time of waiting I finally gave up hope and said ***k the device and went back to AT&T...... and bought the HTC One XL because it recieved updates to sense 5. The device is like an older sibling to the inc4g with close to the same specs. I sold the Incredible 4g because I hated the lack of support for this device... The only good thing going for it was CM10 and the amazing sense kernel. This community deserves more than what has been given to them so far... So my question is why Verizon drop support for us.???? If this community received jelly bean j defiantly would sell my XL and come back to this community......
This is my only my concern.
Sincerely,
24ky
Sent from my HTC One XL using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Here is a weird thought. let your money do the talking. leave Verizon. if enough of us leave we dont need to "change their minds". i brought this up in an HTC elevate detection not to long ago ( also how come htc bent over backwards because verizon wanted the bootload unlock for the ONE removed). instead of open letters or angry tweets and emails, just take your money to someone that appreciates you as a customer? put your money into a company that understands the development community and is willing to support you. how do you think verizon got so good? the used to listen to their customers. now that they are self sustaining they dont need to listen to us anymore. but i bet if their wallet was hit the would. they would bring back unlimited data, remove the block of google wallet, ect....
You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that does great work but also makes you spend $$ money on things that don't need to be fixed.
my $.02
synisterwolf said:
Here is a weird thought. let your money do the talking. leave Verizon. if enough of us leave we dont need to "change their minds" i brought this up in an HTC elevate detection not to long ago. instead of open letters or angry tweets, just take your money to someone that appreciates you as a customer? put your money into a company that understands the development community and is willing to support you.
You wouldn't take your car to a mechanic that does great work but also makes you spend $$ money on things that don't need to be fixed.
my $.02
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my point from before. This is the only thing you can really do. I wish I could dump Verizon right now, but I can't. For now I'll just settle for never buying HTC again.
somerandomname1 said:
This is my point from before. This is the only thing you can really do. I wish I could dump Verizon right now, but I can't. For now I'll just settle for never buying HTC again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this too. maybe if HTC where to step in and help us it would be different.
OP not trying to troll or anything or start a war. i just wanted to get that out their. we do have an option to take our money somewhere else. or at least when this contract is over. ive said it before, i need unlimited data. i dont have wifi anywhere i work and im barely at home so if i have to give up my data plan i will give up my business too. im going to miss there unbeatable coverage but i cant stand to be hit in the balls over and over again with a smile on their face. :/
mdmower said:
I received the below e-mail today. I did not appreciate being contacted out of the blue via e-mail; if you feel the need to contact me, use XDA's tagging feature. With that said, I thought I'd reply in public with my thoughts on the matter, hoping to drive a constructive conversation about Verizon Wireless' restrictions for devices on their network. My initial response is in post 2.
Please, think through your responses before posting. Make sure they ADD to the conversation.
I will leave it up to the writer of the e-mail if he/she would like to make himself/herself known here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My 2 cents on this from bitter experience. You will get zilch. You will waste precious amounts of your life trying hard to convince a rigid management who can care so little they'd be happy to break your phone to pieces and hand you another from their stockpile of dinc4g's just to get rid of them ASAP. I've gone through the whole lot with BBB complaints etc. for the Droid X2 by Motorola. haha, wasted my life there. And the countless pleadings to release the ICS ROM that HTC clearly developed for the Dinc2 (Incredible S, international variant got the ICS update) only to get on the Verizon chopping block and get its head unceremoniously severed, taught me one thing and that is we as consumers have knowingly chosen this path, that will give us limited to no flexibility on customization to stay on VZW and we have to "deal" with it.
With all good intentions, I request all to keep your expectations rock bottom. You have better chances of going to the moon on a future Russian spacecraft than convincing Verizon as to why this may be a good idea.
Sincerely,
A disgruntled Droid™ user.
here has been my android experience. started on og inc oct 2010 first droid phone considered ''high-end'' at the time (8 mp camera saaaaay whaaaat??!) then dinc2 great phone but compared to the galaxy S II and the galaxy nexus at the time it was a ''mid range" phone. now with the inc4g it is very ''mid range'' compared to what is out now. the galaxy notes and s4's and the 50 different htc One(s). if you want many different roms to flash to fix your ''addiction'' go nexus or one of the mainstream phones. you will find 100 different "Unofficial CM10.X" roms with "user tweaks" and "kernel tweaks" that in all actuality are nothing more then a reposync from source. yeah they might have a few different mods but they are usually so similar that you will not/could not tell the difference. like someone mentioned earlier I would rather have a few solid roms. a good sense (viper) or if you're an aosp guy like me there's cm. I think anybody who saw the specs of this phone (incredible 4g) and thought, "hey this is going to be the next BIG THING." I'm sorry to tell you that you were mistaken. xda dev support of a phone is only as good as the devs that own the device, and in our case we have a very small amount of active devs.
So I am the a-hole that emailed mdmower. I apologize profusely. When I saw your first post, I almost slunk away in shame, never to show my face here again. I am not even being a little bit facetious. You do great work for a community of people and I abused (what obviously is) an important rule. And I'm really sorry.
In an attempt to redeem myself just a little bit, let me point out one thing that you might not know:
mdmower said:
Can you point to a single advertisement by either HTC or Verizon that the Droid Incredible 4G LTE would ever be included in HTCDev's unlocked bootloader program? Even HTC's generic advertisements include disclaimers that some devices may not be included due to various restrictions (the most obvious being carrier refusal) [SNIP] There is no legitimate complaint that can be filed towards Verizon concerning this matter since they never advertised this as an available feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, some states may have more favorable law here. First and foremost, many states have an unfair/deceptive business practices law that are distinct from the false advertising law. Example: New York has GBL Section 349 (trade practices), and 350 (Advertising). These are consumer-oriented statutes and so they have some bite.
On this point, while Verizon has never said they would provide us with Jelly Bean, there are some nice facts here like how many people were locked into 2 year contracts on a phone that Verizon stopped updating during their two year period. I've seen suggestions that Verizon is pulling this with older phones in order to force upgrades, and if true, that would be the basis for a claim. But here, I think the HTCDev unlock is actually pretty damning. We should be entitled to take discovery into the real reasons why Verizon forced HTC to remove the phone from the program. Given the repeated warnings about waiver of warranty, and the presence of other VZW phones in the program, it's hard to believe it's a support issue.
Finally -- of note is that the ACLU has filed an FTC complaint on this subject earlier this year. Unfortunately I cannot post the link since I just registered for this post (long time lurker) but it's the 2nd hit for "april FTC complaint android" (see pages 6-9) Their basis is the potential for security flaws which go unfixed. The relief they are requesting is pretty broad. I'm actually surprised that there haven't been follow-on civil suits already.
Anyway, I am really sorry again. I'm going to crawl back under the rock I came from now.
If it's any comfort: my punishment is that my D4INC is a flicker model.
PrimePalaver said:
If it's any comfort: my punishment is that my D4INC is a flicker model.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha burn! Just kidding... it's cool.
So I found myself looking around at different smartphone related articles like I always do when I stumbled across one in particular that had me scared! The article was talking about Samsung and Google bringing Knox to android L. We all know how much of a problem Knox has been to us here at the dev community.
Anyways have a look for yourself here
skeezer308 said:
So I found myself looking around at different smartphone related articles like I always do when I stumbled across one in particular that had me scared! The article was talking about Samsung and Google bringing Knox to android L. We all know how much of a problem Knox has been to us here at the dev community.
Anyways have a look for yourself here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hate to break it to you, but knox or no knox it will likely be a step up in security.
Why wouldn't it be?
Call it what ever you want, just make sure you start shopping for a dev edition.
Yes this was reported when they released the L preview because it's the first time they've included Samsung code into AOSP.
Every release of android will be a step up in security, I'm just going to move on from Verizon if it gets to the point where no boot loader can be unlocked.
joshm.1219 said:
Yes this was reported when they released the L preview because it's the first time they've included Samsung code into AOSP.
Every release of android will be a step up in security, I'm just going to move on from Verizon if it gets to the point where no boot loader can be unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bottom line is that flexibility and customization will always interfere with security and both, fortunately and unfortunately, the latter is one that is of major concern to corporations.
Some of the arguments and measures are over the top but for the most part it part of technology maturing. Rooting a phone for most people here is harmless and enables a purpose, but it also opens the door to circumvent security and encrypted materials from our devices.
It seems Samsung and Verizon are open to creating a "developer" version to allow for justified valid reasons to root and customize, but the more personal and business purposes merge the more security becomes more important over flexibility.
I am not saying this makes it good or that you should like it. But it something that inevitably will continue to progress making it more difficult for complete control of your device.
Capitalism is based on profitability and adoption and if you get large corporation to endorse you methods then you have a huge revenue channel, right, wrong or indifferent.
Hopefully an innovation will come along that will enable the right balance, but only time will tell.
Personally I have recently decided to join BYOD at my work and consequently had to unroot my device, and I have to admit that I miss some aspects, but not enough to give up the convenience of having all I need in ONE device.
Just my $0.02
Well the part that had me concerned was knowing how locked down Samsung devices have become, especially on Verizon and ATT networks. I may be wrong but I think part of the reason we still haven't been able to find an exploit to unlock the bootloader is because of the tightening grips of Knox. Now don't get me wrong I understand that there is a need for security, especially in business with BYOD. I was half scared they were attempting to lock down android to that extent as a whole. As I read further into the article I had learned that some of the Knox feature I was fearing wear hard ware implemented. I think this part from the article pretty much sums it up.
"Even though Samsung is sharing many of the Knox functions with Google on Android L, they will still offer a superior security solution on Samsung devices. This is due to several features requiring deep hardware integration that can only be managed directly by Samsung. As listed on the Samsung Knox blog, the following will remain specific to Samsung:
TrustZone-based Integrity Measurement Architecture (TIMA)
Real-time Kernel Protection
Client Certificate Management (CCM)
Trusted Boot-based Key store
Remote attestation
Trusted Boot
Biometric authentication
KNOX Smart Card Support"
skeezer308 said:
Well the part that had me concerned was knowing how locked down Samsung devices have become, especially on Verizon and ATT networks. I may be wrong but I think part of the reason we still haven't been able to find an exploit to unlock the bootloader is because of the tightening grips of Knox. Now don't get me wrong I understand that there is a need for security, especially in business with BYOD. I was half scared they were attempting to lock down android to that extent as a whole. As I read further into the article I had learned that some of the Knox feature I was fearing wear hard ware implemented. I think this part from the article pretty much sums it up.
"Even though Samsung is sharing many of the Knox functions with Google on Android L, they will still offer a superior security solution on Samsung devices. This is due to several features requiring deep hardware integration that can only be managed directly by Samsung. As listed on the Samsung Knox blog, the following will remain specific to Samsung:
TrustZone-based Integrity Measurement Architecture (TIMA)
Real-time Kernel Protection
Client Certificate Management (CCM)
Trusted Boot-based Key store
Remote attestation
Trusted Boot
Biometric authentication
KNOX Smart Card Support"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is a BIG difference between locked bootloaders and Knox...the bootloader is a proprietary part of the firmware, not the OS...Knox is integrated in the OS....neither have anything to do with the other. Please venture into the T-Mobile, Sprint and International S4 forums to see the effects of Knox. If you do not want a locked bootloader switch to a carrier that does not do it or phones that do not have it. I understand Verizon has even blocked the use of HTCDev on their newer HTC devices and updates. These carriers locking the bootloaders do so to have the most secure phones and be able to go after the military and commercial contracts. So again, do not think Knox has anything to do with the lock down of AT&T and Verizon....that is all between the carrier and Samsung.
m3Jorge said:
The bottom line is that flexibility and customization will always interfere with security and both, fortunately and unfortunately, the latter is one that is of major concern to corporations.
Some of the arguments and measures are over the top but for the most part it part of technology maturing. Rooting a phone for most people here is harmless and enables a purpose, but it also opens the door to circumvent security and encrypted materials from our devices.
It seems Samsung and Verizon are open to creating a "developer" version to allow for justified valid reasons to root and customize, but the more personal and business purposes merge the more security becomes more important over flexibility.
I am not saying this makes it good or that you should like it. But it something that inevitably will continue to progress making it more difficult for complete control of your device.
Capitalism is based on profitability and adoption and if you get large corporation to endorse you methods then you have a huge revenue channel, right, wrong or indifferent.
Hopefully an innovation will come along that will enable the right balance, but only time will tell.
Personally I have recently decided to join BYOD at my work and consequently had to unroot my device, and I have to admit that I miss some aspects, but not enough to give up the convenience of having all I need in ONE device.
Just my $0.02
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know, I don't understand how it would affect anything if they let a user decide if they wanted their bootloader unlocked for every device.
joshm.1219 said:
I don't know, I don't understand how it would affect anything if they let a user decide if they wanted their bootloader unlocked for every device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because the users are not always the owners. My work phone is an Apple 5s. But "My" is not really accurate. It's my employer's phone that they give to me to use for work purposes. So I'm the user, but if the owner wants it locked down, that's their prerogative.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
brizey said:
Because the users are not always the owners. My work phone is an Apple 5s. But "My" is not really accurate. It's my employer's phone that they give to me to use for work purposes. So I'm the user, but if the owner wants it locked down, that's their prerogative.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So require owner account access then
I personally think if they did include knox in android L there would still be an option to use fastboot to unlock the device.
xXsquirr3lsXx said:
I personally think if they did include knox in android L there would still be an option to use fastboot to unlock the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would be correct. Please see OP linked articled to see what is is actually being implemented here.
Hello all,
In my circle of friends there was a suicide case and I was asked by the family if I would be able to remove a screen lock from a Samsung Galaxy S21. The family can't explain why their son killed himself and would like answers to all their questions. They assume that there is information on the phone or reasons for the suicide.
Are there any serious ways to get around such a block? I don't have much information about the device yet, nor do I currently have it with me. Maybe there are exploits or bruteforce toolkits to bypass the lockscreen. Programs like Tenorshare 4uKey or PassFab Android Unlocker are probably scam or?
I will get the device in the next week and could provide more information then.
Currently the following information is available:
Device Model: Samsung Galaxy S21 5G | Samsung SM-G991B | Android 11 | One UI 3.1
Mobile contract: active
SMS PIN & PUK: available
Google account credentials: available and valid and linked to the device but no backups available in Google Drive
Samsung account credentials: present and valid but not associated with the device so no backups available
Does the approach via Kali Nethunter and a HID keyboard attack work with a current Android Samsung Galaxy S21 bruteforcing or do you always get into the temporally increasing lock?
A data recovery $pecialist might be able to, ask the police for assistance.
Find the password for the lockscreen, or maybe through their Gmail or Samsung accounts, again passwords needed.
I think if they wanted you in the phone they would have unlocked it...
blackhawk said:
A data recovery $pecialist might be able to, ask the police for assistance.
Find the password for the lockscreen, or maybe through their Gmail or Samsung accounts, again passwords needed.
I think if they wanted you in the phone they would have unlocked it...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not a helpful answer.
The police in this country does not help in such matters if it is assumed that no outside influence was involved.
A data recovery specialist also only executes toolkits or exploits. I am also able to do this if someone gives me a hint which toolkits or exploits would come into question for this model. I work as a sysadmin myself and therefore I am not completely untalented technically. I just lack information about which approach would be the best.
This is a community of people who like to hack their phones, not hack into other people's phones... which is considered unethical.
Are you serious?
You really think it's unethical when a 21 year old boy takes his own life overnight and the family just wants to know why their son did it? Sure, the boy was of age at 21 and can do with his life what he wants. Nevertheless, any clear-thinking person can understand that the family wants to know why the son did that.
I have no bad intentions and I am only trying to help the family. This is not about hacking a stolen cell phone. Then I would just do a factory reset and use the phone normally and not write this post here.
Yes, well... be that as it may.
With a screen lock in place you can't simply factory reset as you still be locked out.
I believe my original response was valid. It's not an easy nut to crack... by design.
Hello, i own a phone repair shop and i'm a relation with a person specialized in unlocking phones. He said me that he can bypass the lock screen and keep data on all samsung phones and he can do it remotly. Being in this business i don't trust him a lot about keeping data. One of my customer's son is dead and his family want to access his phone, they gave me his phone and they are agree to loose data if things dont go good so i'm gonna try with this guy and if you want i will give you a feedback.
Hi sorry to hear that this terrible situation happened around you.
I am in a similar situation. My cousin died suddenly and his sister asked be to recover pictures and videos because he filmed himself before try to end his life and she would like to find if there is any video that could help us understand better.
I'm trying to find ways to do that and so far I haven't but I wanted to share some information in case it could be helpful to someone.
I tried the iMobie Data Extractor. It is supposed to help recover data from "broken phone". I guess it's the closest thing I found that didn't look scammy and could work. After about a month of back and forth with their support person, I managed to replaced the OS using Odin (because the official software left my phone in a non-bootable state) replacing all partitions except User Data. Unfortunately, that didn't remove the lock (PIN). I'm not surprised since I didn't wipe the User Data.
From a security perspective, it is good that it is hard (impossible) to access data of a locked phone, but from a family emotional perspective, it is hard to have to tell my family that I failed.
I wish you good luck and please post here if you find a way.
be safe
Touftaf said:
Hello, i own a phone repair shop and i'm a relation with a person specialized in unlocking phones. He said me that he can bypass the lock screen and keep data on all samsung phones and he can do it remotly. Being in this business i don't trust him a lot about keeping data. One of my customer's son is dead and his family want to access his phone, they gave me his phone and they are agree to loose data if things dont go good so i'm gonna try with this guy and if you want i will give you a feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happened
I don't have easy-to-hear information for you. But I offer these words as a way to think about this situation.
I believe Samsung intentionally builds phones which are extremely hard to break into. This is a conscious design decision they make. Why? Because so many users do things like credit card payments, banking, and social media, where, if you lost your phone and a bad person found it, an easy-to-break-into device would have potentially catastrophic results. Aside from the harm to a user who lost a phone, Samsung themselves would be subjected to great reputational damage, too. It's bad press when it's easy to break into and steal something.
Also, you may not be able to break into the device, even with the help of a commercial vendor. Exploits in Android, when found, are patched regularly. A very smart person might have had a way to crack into a phone last week, last month, or last year. But again, Samsung intends to continually patch the software to keep it secure. They make a point to telling people that Samsung phones are patched for several years, so users will feel confident their data will be secure.
One suspects certain governments have police or security organizations who likely could break in, but they are unlikely to help in a personal situation, as you described.
Although this doesn't seem to apply to you, it's worth saying that Samsung phones are also backed up (by default) to their "cloud." It's possible that a lawyer might be able, with proper documentation of the owner's death, to get access to Samsung's (or Google's) cloud backup(s). I don't think it's easy though. Google, at least in the USA, allows the owner of an account to specify how Google should handle their data if they stop accessing their accounts. (I think Google treats an idle account as "dead" and for reasons like this, if you no longer want to use a vendor like Samsung or Google, you should proactively delete your account, not merely let it go idle.)
Anyone reading this post, might want to consider having what can be an uncomfortable conversation with your friends and family: "How would you like your friends and family handle your electronic, financial, and social accounts in the event of your death?"
Please, forgive me if any of this sounds insensitive. My father worked in insurance and as part of his job he knew all to well that all people eventually die. And how hard it is for those left behind to pick up the pieces, especially when secrets are involved. My family knows where to find my keys.